Episode 14: Why we couldn't finish reading Demon Copperhead

For the month of February, we selected the book Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver to read for our Read Like a Writer Book Club.

In this episode, we discuss the challenge of not being able to finish the book. We tried to glean insights from the book to apply to our own writing, but we found we were disappointed by the similarity to Dickens' classic David Copperfield. 

While the book gained widespread popularity as a Pulitzer Prize winner, we were curious about it receiving this recognition, so you'll hear us touch upon this in this episode. 

Connect with us! Schedule a coffee chat with Elizabeth or Stephanie!

Join our email list for first to know information about weekly podcast episodes, writing aids, and upcoming offers!

To get more information about joining our Inspired Writer Collective or Read Like A Writer book club, click here.

If you prefer video versions of the podcast or want to leave a comment on this specific episode, you can locate all of them here on our YouTube channel.

Transcript

Elizabeth: 0:01

Welcome fellow writers to the Inspired Writer Collective podcast, your go to hub for all things writing. We're your hosts, Elizabeth and Stephanie. Whether you're a seasoned wordsmith or just dipping your quill into the ink well of creativity, we're absolutely thrilled to have you with us. Drawing from our experience in publishing diverse writing genres and the daily grind of showing up for yourself, we're here to be your writing companions. Expect insightful discussions, expert tips, and a dash of inspiration as we navigate the twists and turns of the writing journey together. So whether you're listening on your commute, during your writing session, or just relaxing at home, get ready for an immersive experience that celebrates the art and joy of writing. Hi,

Stephanie: 0:51

Hey, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: 0:53

Hey Stephanie, how are you?

Stephanie: 0:56

Good. How are you?

Elizabeth: 0:59

Good. We finally, I mean, kind of a red demon copperhead, full disclosure, everyone, Stephanie and I followed the same formula. We both got to about page 60 before, you know, multiple days of us being like, have you read this yet? Are you getting further? So around page 60 is where we both ended up. Bailing on the storyline and jumping to the end of the book, reading the last couple of chapters, just to see what sort of qualities might be redeeming there. Stephanie, overall, do you give your experience with this book a thumbs up, a thumbs down in between mixed, mixed feelings? Where are you at?

Stephanie: 1:44

You know, I wouldn't go completely thumbs down because I think depending upon your interest, I think it is kind of in the middle. And for me, I probably could have read through it, but it just didn't, I. Grab me enough. But I think if I had more time and didn't have so many other projects and things going on, to try to fit it in and to try to read it with good quality of what we were looking for, to, you know, read like a writer and really glean something from it, that's probably, I mean. In terms of learning from it, I'm not so sure I give it a thumb. I would say probably thumbs down for that just because there wasn't a lot that I took away from it other than it. I don't know. It just didn't really draw me in. And I know I've mentioned in other conversations that I've had about this book that a, some of it for me was that I do have experience teaching in communities similar to. The setting of demon copperhead in Appalachia, but in Colorado. And so there was a little bit there where I wasn't sure that I wanted to walk back through a lot of that journey again, because that was a really challenging time in my teaching. Ultimately, I left the classroom after all of that experience and. You know, went on another path. So I think that with that, while it's very true to life, even though it's fiction, it was definitely challenging. How about for you?

Elizabeth: 3:27

For me, it was a thumbs down. I only read as far as I did because I was trying to push myself because we had selected it as our read, like a writer book, and we had picked it because it was a Pulitzer Prize winner because of the positive reviews about the engaging character. And how it was written, like a memoir, and we were interested in looking into the dialogue. And very early on in this book, I realized that there was going to be a. Minimal dialogue. So it wasn't gonna serve that purpose. It did not feel to me like it was written, like a memoir. And maybe I'm a more avid memoir reader than the average, you know, fiction reader. So maybe that's just my own perspective. But like you, I had a, I struggled to really get engaged in it. Also after reading, you know, the inside flap and, and seeing that it was going to mirror David Copperfield, I had quickly, you know, read through a synopsis of that book and then found myself irritated over and over again at how closely Barbara King solver stuck to the original David Copperfield plotting and character names. I mean, to the extent of like. Angus is Agnes and nanny Pago is Nancy Peg. I mean, it's just this, almost the same names. So it was a bit irritated by the lack of creativity in the plot and just at the overall pacing, I guess it did really feel like a older, slower, classic. Written heavy prose book and I just couldn't dig through it.

Stephanie: 5:22

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you with all of those points that it was surprising to me that it gained such popularity, and I think as we've discussed, I. It's interesting how when books are awarded prizes of a particular level that. There's this mentality of, oh, well we have to read it because it's, you know, I mean, on the front of my book it says it was Oprah's Book Club Pick and it was the Pulitzer. And so, you know, that of course draws readers in. But I'd be really curious because I read so many reviews with people talking about what a slog it was to get through the middle of the book as to how, how much it was really. Enjoyed by readers and it's good information. Certainly to think about that as writers is, you know, what are the readers wanting? And within your genre, as we've talked about, you wanna think about that. And certainly for fiction, I agree with you. I mean, this was heavy, like a classic, and the fact that it was so closely. Aligned with David Copperfield and feeling like there could have been more new that could have been brought to it. 600 pages is heavy for living through somebody's opioid addiction and poverty and. Just all of that. And while I understand that there was an overarching message of wanting to bring awareness to everybody, that this still exists in our day and age, and you know, we need to think about these communities that are struggling with these different challenges around drug addiction that at the same time. I really feel like there could have been more dialogue, which of course I am more familiar with, with books in the romance genre that are heavily dialogue driven. So for me, since it was a different genre for reading, it really slowed me down because I'm used to the fast pace and I wish there had been more dialogue. I feel like the dialogue was mixed in with the pros a lot more. Because it was told from demon's perspective, and I wish that there had been more interactions in conversation rather than just us being told a lot of things and making it feel like in terms of the character development that everything was just happening to him. It didn't feel like as the main character that. He was taking action in what was going on. It was, you know, I'm a, a little bit too much of. Just not a whole lot there. Not a whole lot to like about the character. And as I've mentioned before too, I mean with his name and the idea that he's got this striking head of hair, you know, copperhead. And I was, I was wishing for more of a fiery character because as a writer, if I'm, oftentimes names align with characteristics sometimes, and you think like, oh, copperhead, he's gonna be fiery. We're gonna get some something going here. And it just didn't happen.

Elizabeth: 9:06

Yeah. As I was doing that deeper dive into the prize, the Pulitzer Prize, I found that this was the first double win within the fiction category in the 106 years at that point, that. The Pulitzer had been awarded and the other one was Hernan Diaz's Trust. And both of these bo, those books, both demon copperhead and trust focused around like poverty and wealth. And that juxtaposition, the accumulation in maintenance of wealth or the extreme poverty that we see in demon copperhead. So I have to believe that there was something going on and like. Society at the time. Again, this is like post pandemic where the poor are getting poor and the richer, getting richer, that this felt like maybe to the the panel or the board that chooses these wins, that this felt like a poignant. Topic versus, you know, necessarily a well written book. It, it's just interesting that the other book that one in this category at this time has a similar theme. It makes me think that the theme was a highly motivating factor in the nomination. But like you said, Stephanie, I was also really turned off by the lack of character arc or character development from this, from Demon. Granted when we meet him, he is a, a child and we understand that children may not have a whole lot of, you know, autonomy, but everything in the, the pros was just, and in the narration was. Just happening to him, and I got extremely frustrated. I felt like that's part of what made the plot so slow. It made me feel like, does this guy even have much hope? Like I didn't have much belief in the character because he didn't have much gumption about him. And, and, and literally anything that he was doing. So that, that became a big source of my frustration and where I really started to disagree with some of the reviews we were reading about how this was so written, like a memoir, and I'm like, there's no way you could not market a memoir that has this lack of character development and active participation in what's happening in your life. It would be the most. Boring memoir ever, if there's no action being taken by the main character. And I grew really frustrated with that in the, you know, whatever, 5% of the book that I actually managed to read, I.

Stephanie: 11:39

No, absolutely. It really was slow going. I, in the same way was getting frustrated because I felt like with every page turn and even every next chapter, it was like I kept thinking, am I gonna have to read another story about something that he is doing with someone? But it doesn't really. me understand where this is going in any way other than just, you know, some really tough stuff that happens in the beginning of the book. And then I know as it goes on from reading reviews that, you know, he becomes the football star and there's opioid addiction and. And I felt too that some of the writing was challenging because it just. Had no breaks. It was just, it just felt like long, lengthy descriptions that were going on too long. And then, and maybe this was to mirror the dialect, but sentences ending at unexpected moments, and definitely the, I guess you could say a rule breaker because of King Solvers. Being Kingsolver, being such a renowned writer and author. And I've certainly loved so much of her earlier work. So that was another thing going into the book is I was so disappointed because I remember reading some of her other works and just absolutely loving her books. And so to have this. Feel so copy and pasted essentially from a classic. And I don't know if the intention is to try to bring this next generation into a classic in a different way and hyping it up. And, but it just didn't really, I don't feel that it successfully played out that way. And so it was definitely interesting.

Elizabeth: 13:41

Right, and I know you and I have talked sort of offline about other characters that we were actually really interested in. You know, like Mag, the gay. Neighbor boy, you know, and even the drug addicted mom or, or she was, you know, at some point she was sober or in recovery. Like there are definitely characters within this. That were kind of side characters that I was more interested in than Demon story. So it's a shame that King Solver didn't take the classic and put a new spin or a new perspective on it. Like I've seen, I forget the author's name, but she wrote Sasha and then she also wrote Song of Achilles where she took classics, but she put her own. A different perspective on it. And that's was not happening in this story. And also to your point about King Solver trying to bring back a classic, I watched an interview that she had did where she said that actually she started with the wanting to tell the story of. The addiction and the children of this area that got stuck into these systems and the foster care. And she just didn't know how to come at this story in a way that would be approachable until she got the inspiration to then fit it to the Dickens Classic of David Copperfield. And she actually said almost a direct quote of. He wrote her first draft for her, like she referenced using Dickens' plotting as the entire writing of her first draft, which if you ask me as a book coach, that's where I think she went wrong. Like it's one thing to take inspiration from another source and to heavily defer to it, you know? But. But I think that's why you and I felt like there was no creativity and were very frustrated by the pacing of the book and, and the like, lack of complexity of the storyline, because she literally said that that was her first draft was borrowing directly from Dickens.

Stephanie: 16:00

And that, and I wasn't able to watch that, but that's almost disappointing to, to hear that from someone who's such a celebrated author and. Who has written so many wonderful novels to hear that, you know, taking another author's book and essentially using it to plot your own, because I think that that's such risky territory, especially for new writers or people who are struggling or in are thinking like, how do I come up with an idea? You know, to take what somebody else has done and then essentially use that as a draft and then fit in your own self into it. It doesn't feel authentic and it doesn't feel like it captures the story in the way that I think she might've meant to tell it because I. We, I mean, we were talking yesterday in our writers group and you know, they mentioned the book Cold Mountain as one that would be a better one to go to, to walk through this same material. And so it's, it's disappointing to hear that she was so stuck in having that as her guidance for plot. And from my perspective too, as a. Book coach for fiction writers, I wouldn't recommend it. There's no doubt that part of our book club is read like a writer. We're certainly reading writers and we're learning from them, but we're certainly not saying, oh, I'm gonna read this book and I'm gonna use this exact plotting to then write mine. No way. I would wouldn't recommend that at all.

Elizabeth: 17:41

Right. And another thing that was curious that she brought up in that is she was talking about like the, you know. Beauty of Dickens writing, and she mentioned specifically about cliffhanger endings, and she referenced the fact that back in that time, you know, it wasn't like an entire book would be published, right? You would get like. They didn't call'em chapters, but you know, portions of the book at time that would come by train and it would be a big deal and people would be waiting, you know, for that next installment to be published. And it would be just published a piece at a time and how Dickens uses these cliffhanger endings at the end of his cha chapters and how she modeled hers after that. But I really struggled to find any sort of cliffhanger endings at her chapters. I mean. Gosh. Honestly, when I got to an end of a chapter, I was like, great, I can stop. Did you feel like there is a cliffhanger? I know for you, you particularly like to pay attention to endings of chapters I.

Stephanie: 18:41

Yeah, I was, I was, was going through the book and I was looking at sort of first lines of chapters and, and I wasn't really struck by very much in the book. And usually that is the piece that keeps you reading. I mean, I, I think about it too because I've done so many read alouds, both as a parent and a teacher, and. That's always the piece where, you know, the kids are like, or you know, anybody's like on the edge of the seat. I mean, even as an adult, I love hearing stories and I want the cliffhanger that's gonna make me say, oh, I wanna hear the next one. And I didn't feel that much like you. When I got to the end of the chapter, I was like, phew. And then when I would start the next one, I would think, okay, here we go again. I don't know if I can make it.

Elizabeth: 19:34

Yeah, I, you mentioned the read alouds. I've been reading to my daughter the Magic Treehouse books and don't you believe I tell her, okay, we're just reading two chapters tonight, but I get to the end of that Saap second chapter and there's always a cliffhanger and I always wanna keep reading the next chapter, you know, so. That like sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not. And for me in this book, I, I would not have categorized any of those chapter endings as is cliffhangers. They were a relief to be to an end of something. And I know, I don't think that's what she was going for, for sure. The other thing you've mentioned a little bit earlier, especially in your own personal experience of this similar level of like poverty and lack of financial mobility and drug use in a society. Um, I, I've had issue with her representation. Of Appalachia, and I know she lives there. I know she's from there. I understand what her intent was, and maybe I would've felt differently if I hadn't had exposure to some of these other things. But when I look at the contrast of how she presents it. Where, in my opinion, she pulled all of these tropes into this one character of demon. It made him seem inauthentic to me, be, and I know that there are other readers that had the totally opposite, you know, impression of him, but I just felt like it was an overuse of tropes for one character. And I much prefer the depictions of this area and the struggles of the mining and the. The drug use that are represented in the TV series of Dope Sick or in the music of Tyler Childers. And both of those, to me, are able to grasp the grittiness and the stuckness and also the beauty of this area that I just was not getting from King Solver's way of. Depicting this character or, or this, you know, the other characters. It really felt like there all felt stuck and there was a little bit of illusion at the end of, you know, wanting to call this place home, but there were just so many, however she described it, I think IEDs along the road as he was driving, like memories that could just explode in his face at any point of hard things. And I, I just didn't. Unfortunately, I didn't feel like she captured the beauty of this part of the country. And I, I mean, I grew up in Georgia, so I, you know, I would travel to, to the mountains and I spent a couple of years living in North Carolina. I love this area. and I felt like that was missing. And then there was an overuse of tropes ascribed to demon and his life situation.

Stephanie: 22:37

Yeah, I'm, I'm in absolute agreement with you because I think that there was so much that she really could have pulled from. To create a character that had the grit, that had, you know, some kind of drive to be the change for the community. And even though there's some allusion to that at like, there's some mention of that a little bit at the end with him having been a football player and his relationship with his coach and. Some influence there, but it didn't feel like there was enough that where you, I mean, as you mentioned, since it's been compared to a memoir, you know, in a memoir you come away with this feeling of, wow, like there is change in this person. Like, wow, I've learned so much, or I wanna be like this person, or I wanna try what this person has done'cause they've overcome these obstacles or whatever it might be, and you just don't feel that same. Change in demon and change for the community. And, and I agree with you, it is such a beautiful part of the country. I've spent time in the area there. I've watched YouTube videos about the cultures and the area, and I really think that there could have been a lot more to make you feel like, as a reader, like, I know this is fiction, but. Wow. I'd love to know the people there. I'd love to be a part of that and to, and to feel like you're drawn into the story more. And I think that's a good thing to think about as writers is how are you going to pull your reader in? And the main character is often the first point that that happens. And that, like for you, that also didn't happen for me. I unfortunately. Other people might feel differently, but I wasn't feeling connected to demon and his experience and and, and I didn't feel like there was much voice. I mean, his voice is softer at the end a little bit, but there's still not a whole lot of change.

Elizabeth: 24:59

Yeah, I expected to see more grit, more resilience. That's very characteristic of, you know, the Appalachian story. You know, when you think about, you know. The miners and the amount of like physical labor and demand and you know, the making the most of your situations because it's all so rural and there's not a lot of resources and there's not big towns to do. You're grocery shopping and you're growing things from the earth yourself and you're getting help from neighbors and I just, I just felt like that what I think is at the heart of this region. I felt like those qualities were really missing from this story.

Stephanie: 25:44

Yeah, I, I agree with you. It was really. Unfortunate, but a good learning experience nonetheless, to have taken a book that was given an award and so many accolades, and think about it in terms of our own experience as writers, and also that it's also good to remember as a writer that. Not every book is for every reader, and so it's important to remember that if you're out there struggling and feeling like maybe your book doesn't fit, that that's not true, that there's a place for your story, you'll find your readers and to keep moving forward.

Elizabeth: 26:30

there were two nuggets of wisdom that I flagged in this book that I thought would be good just for writers. I don't know that I would argue that Barbara King Solver did these in this book, but she writes this, so I'm gonna share. The first one is she says, A good story doesn't just copy life, it pushes back on it. I really liked that sentiment about not just necessarily reflecting life as it is, but highlighting the parts that where you are taking an active role and counteracting what it is you're living. And then the other quote that stuck out to me I've made any number of false starts with this mess. You think you know where your own troubles lie. Only to stare down the page and realize, no, not there. It started earlier, like these wars going back to George Washington and Whiskey, or in my case, chapter one, first I got myself born. The worst of the job was up to me. Here we are in that sentiment of not knowing where your own troubles lie. That for me is a great way to summarize the memoir writing experience, where you start down this path where you think you're writing the memoir about this thing, or you think you know that it starts here or it ends here, and then as you go about writing it and putting it on the page, you realize, no, not there. Maybe it started earlier, maybe it started later. Maybe. You know what? Depending on the situation. But I, I did really like that sentiment as far as, uh, self-reflection of the writing process that, you know, demons reflecting on. But I felt like that was pertinent to people writing and memoir as well. And maybe even, you can say for fiction, Stephanie.

Stephanie: 28:23

absolutely. I mean, I think sometimes we don't know where a story's gonna take us when we sit down to start writing. I certainly have that experience. I was mentioning that just this morning in our writing session about how I sit down and I think it's gonna go one way and it goes another way. But it's also a good reminder about. The first quote you talked about with the pushing back that that, that's one of the beautiful things about writing and being a writer, is being able to create and write a story that does have a little bit of pushback, that gives a message to your readers that says like, Hey, this is my experience. If you're writing memoir, and look at where it brought me, look at. How my life is now, or even in fiction, having your characters pushing back instead of being passive, which was, as we've talked about, so unfortunate in demon copperfield that there wasn't. Any main character energy as somebody might say about someone taking charge and, you know, really moving through their life in a more purposeful way. It, it just felt so passive and so yeah.

Elizabeth: 29:41

Well, that's been an experience for us and next month we're doing the midnight library, which Stephanie and I have already read, and we are very excited. This, it's not gonna be a, you know, two thumbs down sort of book review at the end. There's a lot that we can. Speak on about memoir writing and storytelling and character development. That will be a totally different feel to demon copperhead. So if you're interested in reading along with us, that's the book for March. And if you're ever interested in just having a casual chat with us, we have a link in the show description that you can just. Chat with us about what you're wanting to write, what you're reading that you wanna emulate within your own writing, whether it's fiction, whether it's memoir. We'd love to hear from you.

Stephanie: 30:36

Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of the Inspired Writer Collective podcast. We hope you found inspiration, insights, and connection to yourself as a writer. If you enjoyed this episode, please share, subscribe, and leave us a five star review. Remember, the power of storytelling lies within each of us, and by supporting one another, we can make a difference. We invite you to schedule a coffee chat with us on our website, www. inspiredwritercollective. com. Just like our style here on the podcast, our coffee chats are casual and a way to connect about your writing and discover if book coaching or joining our upcoming writing cohorts for memoir and contemporary romance writing are for you. You can also become a part of our community by connecting with us on social media. You can find us on Instagram and YouTube at Inspired Writer Collective, on TikTok at Inspired Writer LLC. Let's continue this writing journey together. You can find links in the show notes. Until next time, fellow writers, may your pens be mighty and your stories captivating. Happy writing!