Episode 17: Things to know about traditional publishing

In this episode, Elizabeth shares details from an online writing conference she attended focused on publishing. You'll learn about what agents want to see from you when you're considering a traditional publisher. For example, what you should know about pitching your book to an agent, and what will help you catch their attention. You'll also hear tips about writing your query letter. So, if you're curious about traditional publishing, give this episode a listen and get ready for next week when we talk about indie publishing. 

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Transcript

0:01

Welcome fellow writers to the Inspired Writer Collective podcast, your go to hub for all things writing. We're your hosts, Elizabeth and Stephanie. Whether you're a seasoned wordsmith or just dipping your quill into the ink well of creativity, we're absolutely thrilled to have you with us. Drawing from our experience in publishing diverse writing genres and the daily grind of showing up for yourself, we're here to be your writing companions. Expect insightful discussions, expert tips, and a dash of inspiration as we navigate the twists and turns of the writing journey together. So whether you're listening on your commute, during your writing session, or just relaxing at home, get ready for an immersive experience that celebrates the art and joy of writing. Hi,

Elizabeth: 0:50

Hello, Stephanie.

Stephanie: 0:52

Hi, Elizabeth. How are you?

Elizabeth: 0:56

I'm good. I'm excited to talk to you today about the writers conference focused on publishing that I attended virtually over the weekend. So it was an online conference. It did take place, I guess, in Colorado, but I don't think any of the agents who were like giving the lectures were actually In Colorado, but it was, I guess, for writers in the state of Colorado, the time zones and stuff like the timing of the lectures were all mountain time. So it was, I had chosen to do to participate in this conference because it was the heavy focus was on publishing and as I'm in the editing phase of my memoir. I always feel like it's important to start looking at what the next step is and start exploring like what those options are and so that I know what to anticipate or Can take some of that feedback and incorporate it into what i'm currently doing Like if there's something I need to do in the editing phase that will make my publishing phase easier Like i'd like to know that now so that was my reason for signing up for the conference Thanks initially because I wanted to just go ahead and figure out what those next steps look like. We have a number of, you know, friends in our writers group who have published works. I know some people who have done indie publishing. You know, small presses as well as people who have used, you know, KDP, Amazon's publishing, self publishing, but the traditional publishing world felt very unfamiliar to me. I don't know anyone who's done that. It feels very exclusive and I constantly found myself oscillating between, Oh, that's a lot of work. That's not for me. I, I want to maintain control over my, you know, edits and my messaging versus I have a great story. Of course, I want it shared as widely as possible and going the traditional publishing routes. will be difficult, but, you know, it'll open doors for me that I can't, I don't have access to myself, you know, simply because the name recognition of Penguin or Simon and Schuster or, you know, any of the big five. And so it was an interesting process for me mentally, like, going through the week because, or the two days. So it was like a Friday and a Saturday. And they, the, all of the people who gave lectures were agents. And so an agent's role, that's basically your gateway to any of the big publishers. You don't necessarily have to have an agent to solicit to the indie or small presses, but you absolutely have to have one for the traditional publishers. They won't accept non agent and agented work. And so it was really interesting. hearing from these agents about the process and sort of like pulling back the curtain of what it looks like for for them when they receive all these usually 10 pages and a pitch and what they're looking for and Just some reality checks on the industry as it stands right now There was big emphasis on word count And also on particular genres So maybe it was just that the certain agents happen to all coincide with what they're seeking, but I have a feeling that it actually indicates some bigger market trends of what they know is sellable because agents work solely on commission, right? Think of them as like your real estate agent, right? You go to a real estate agent, you go and they try to help you find the house that's the best fit and get you the best deal. So a book agent is really similar in that they're trying to get you the most money for your book, and they get paid a pretty much industry standard of 15 percent of what you get, which is essentially your advance. Most people don't earn anything beyond their advance. Because as the name advance implies that's an advance on the royalties that 10 percent from the Traditional publisher that you stand to earn so until you pass, you know Unless your book really, you know takes off and you get past that point Most people don't receive anything past their advance. You don't have to pay it back, but you know, they don't owe you anything additional until you sell beyond that point and earn royalties beyond that point. And so, what I noticed with these agents is everyone was pretty much looking for almost exclusively fiction, specifically thriller and fantasy genres, mostly geared toward young adult and middle grades.

Stephanie: 6:16

Interesting.

Elizabeth: 6:17

Which is really interesting.

Stephanie: 6:20

did they talk about what, I mean, was there any mention about why that's the focus currently? Or was that just what you gleaned from listening to them talk?

Elizabeth: 6:28

That was just a commonality I gleaned when every agent was talking about what specifically they were open to hearing pitches about, is that they were all emphasizing that particular age group as well as those two genres. And also because those genres, especially fantasy, tend to be, the word counts tend to go higher because you're having to build this whole world and there's a lot to it. That's it. The other piece of that is they were emphasizing that there is issue with the higher word counts because of the space those bigger books take up on the shelf. When a publisher looks at it, you have to remember this is all about business, but when a publisher looks at a manuscript that's like 150, 000 words, they know it's going to take up this much space on the bookshelf, whereas You know if they could have two books each selling for you know, 20 bucks that fit in that same space So that was one of the big messages for those who were writing in those genres already that Word count was really essential, especially as a debut author making sure that you stay closer to like the 100, 000 words level maybe a little bit more 110, 000 But not writing these big epics and it's easy to think that Your book is the exception or you can find the exceptions on the shelf But you're usually not finding those from debut authors think back to like the Harry Potter series, right? So yes, we can, you know, see book five and you know, some of those books were just giant Right, but remember how big book one was? It was about this thick, you know, and the other part, because those, especially fantasies seems to be written typically in series because you put so much effort into building this world. The other big advice that a lot of the agents gave was make sure that you have a full story within that first book and you can put in your pitch that it's, you know, A standalone story with series potential, because that is kind of attractive to the publishers if they like, you know, what you've written, but it needs to be a standalone book. So if you remember in the first Harry Potter book, Voldemort dies. Like there is resolution. There is conclusion. Yes, there's room to go on to year two and whatnot, but there is a wrap up to that story. So those were some interesting sort of takeaways. And then I'd love to just sort of explain what I took from what at least appeared to me as the process. So we as authors we've written our manuscript we've polished it up We've gone all the way through our multiple edits. Maybe you've hired an editor on your own Maybe you've used, you know beta readers or Other writers to give you some feedback Anyways, you get your book to the point where you believe it's ready And then you write your pitch and 10 pages Which is typical or whatever they ask for but it's typically 10 pages

Stephanie: 10:05

Yeah,

Elizabeth: 10:06

And it's the first 10 pages of your book, right? And you don't get to pick which 10 pages, you know, like, oh, the really good stuff's in the middle. No, like it's the first 10 pages. And so then you send that to the agent and they read that pitch and they're looking at what kind of marketing potential it is, how well the characters are developed, how engaging it is, whether they're sucked in. There was all sorts of advice about not putting a question in your pitch. You want the reader to have the question. You don't want them to be forced to answer your question because they may answer it in a way that you didn't choose to write the book. You know, like will she leave her husband at the end? Well, they may choose, yes, you may have chosen no or vice versa, you know, so that was a big precaution. But anyway, the, the agent just has a couple of pages to read. If they like what they see, they may ask for up to 50 pages. And then if they like that, then they may ask for the full manuscript. All of that happens before they ever sign you as as an author.

Stephanie: 11:18

And did they

Elizabeth: 11:19

Once

Stephanie: 11:20

the length of like the query letters, know, the pitch, was there like a particular standard for how long your query letter or pitch has to be, or, So

Elizabeth: 11:31

standards. Yes. What did they say? So less than 200 words. Would be like the equivalent of the jacket blurb or pitch So the query letter would include that it would include the genre. It would include your word count It would include Comps so similar to other recently published authors and that was generally listed as within the past year That you should be aware. You can also use screen references like tv shows movies that sort of thing as well And then a bio for the author that includes any sort of things related to their writing career, like where they've been previously published or other endeavors that they're, they're working on related to writing. But yes, it was, it was less than 200 words. So it's basically what would fit on the back of a book. If you go to the library or to a bookstore, just take a couple of books in your genre off the shelf and take a look at that blurb. Usually there is a one liner at the top of the book. I didn't pick any good ones that had those. Maybe oh, here we go. So some of them will appear on like the inside flap versus the back where there's just accolades. So there's usually a one liner. This one is an intense and emotional Epistolary memoir by one of the world's top ice climbers, born at the confluence of motherhood, adventure, career, and marriage. This one doesn't have one. So there's usually some kind of one liner to get attention, and then there's the rest of the blurb. At this point, you're not presenting them with a summary. They would ask for that or a synopsis is the other word used they would ask for that separately That's where you give them beginning middle of an end your pitch Blurb should not include the end. It should be the same sort of tantalizing snippet that you provide to the reader, you know, that's to entice. Now in the synopsis, that's where you give away your clues and who the murderer is and all of that and the end result and the conclusion of the book. So after, go ahead.

Stephanie: 14:01

No, I was just gonna say, so the enticement is almost like as if you were like in the elevator with someone and they asked you what your book was about that you'd be able to give them kind of the hook so that they'd be like, Oh, that sounds like a book. I want to read as opposed to going on and on and on and confusing, know, what you're presenting essentially.

Elizabeth: 14:23

It's exactly the same, it's the starting point for what your agent, if they sign you on. Is then going to use as your jacket blurb now, they may edit it. They may tweak words They may move stuff around or change emphasis, but it is basically the rough draft of the back of your book So that's why it's helpful to look at the either the inside flap copy or the back of the books of You know similar books in your genre. So once you get signed by an agent At that point, I mean there's no exchange of money in that it's just you're signing that you're going to give them 15 Commission if anyone is asking for any sort of upfront cost, absolutely. That's a scam run a different way. But they are basically selling saying that they are going to go and sell your book It is their job to be well versed in the publishers and what they're looking for and the editors And understand specific spots where your story is would be most accepted. And they'll usually give you a round of edits that they want to see before they go and start to sell your manuscript. And so say you make it through that process, and you find someone who's ready to buy your manuscript, you get it through to the publishers. Again, we're talking about one to two percent, I think, were the quotes they gave of books that they're able to sell. I mean, it's, It's, it's a, it's a tough, it's a tough field. And so say you sell your book, now you are exposed to a whole team. You've got editors, you've got book cover designers. So you might get to choose like one of three options. You're gonna get another round of, of edits. So you're looking at a two year investment plus several more rounds of edits to your book, and that process, so you've probably already gone through about a year's process of pitching and getting signed by an agent and then getting the, the contract signed with a publisher. Now you're up for probably another year because that's how they slate their publishing schedule before your book is actually hitting the shelf. So you're looking at a two year investment plus several more rounds of edits. And a little less freedom. You can certainly push back with reason and justification as to why you don't want to make certain edits, but for the most part, you know, they've agreed to publish your book and they have certain things that they need to see in order to make it marketable. Again, it, once you move into the traditional publishing realm, you have to remember that this is a business. This is less of an art form and self expression. And it's first and foremost a business and they're looking at profitability. and what will sell. I know we've talked on a previous episode about how there was a story removed from Wild by Cheryl Strayed. I heard her talk about it in an interview with Glennon Doyle about how her publisher had to remove any references to her grandfather molesting her as a child from the book in order to make it more widely consumable and approachable to a broader audience of readers. And when I bring that up to people who have read the book, most of them are struck with, Oh, I wish that would have been included. I would have understood her promiscuity so much more or her, you know, lack of interest or appreciation for the marriage that she had. If I had understood this key piece of her history, I But the publishers had her take it out in order to have, you know, broader readership. So That's sort of a very Overview bird's eye view of the traditional publishing world at least as I perceived it through four or five different speakers There was one. Bronwyn What's her last name? That's her pen name. She's a romance author, and she's written like 70 books. She's got a book that comes out every, probably twice a year or more, you know. She's got books that are coming out, and so she's, you know, established, an established author within the system, and so she spoke about her process. Of her writing schedule to stay on top of the publishing schedule. So she's a little bit more Inside that, you know cog and system with her books but The takeaway from hers was about how you know, the the selling of those early books Is what? continues those wheels to turn. If you come in as a debut author and your first book doesn't do that great, then that's going to prevent you from getting another contract from your agent or from your publisher. Once you have an agent, there is a guarantee that they're going to want to look at your next manuscript. It's so much easier for them to Find good writers and then support and promote those good writers then to constantly go out back into the big pool and find other Good writers, but you do have to be super aware of your sales, even if you do traditional publishing

Stephanie: 20:15

absolutely. And the interesting thing about the agent piece, when I was at the Association of Writers and Writer Programs Conference a few weeks ago, one of the things that actually came up in some of the traditional publishing conversations there was that it's also okay to fire your agent. That just because you, Get one agent doesn't mean that that's going to be your agent forever. There was, I know there was one author who talked about how had a different agent for every book she had published. just because. different, you know, conflicts that came up and, you know, different subject matters in her books that, know, the first agent it didn't align with, and so there were different choices that were made for followup agents. So I thought that that was interesting because I would imagine that there are probably people out there who feel like, Oh, I got an agent. Okay. I'm staying here. And then they think they have to stay. Stay there, even if it's potentially miserable. And so one of the messages that I thought was interesting, cause I, I didn't know that, you know, I probably would have been one who thought like, Oh, I got an agent. Okay. I'm going to stick here. To know that you can. Move around within the industry. And of course, I think once you're kind of in with an agent, it's a lot easier to then make connections with other agents as, you know, as you're going along, if that's something. And certainly if you have an agent who's wonderful. Like stay with it. Like that's amazing too. Not

Elizabeth: 21:53

another reason another reason for switching maybe if you switch genres because agents have developed relationships with editors who Are looking for books in their particular genre that they're seeking writers for say for me You know, my first book is memoir But say I want to then branch into fiction for my next book There there may be a need to find a different agent now granted if you have a positive working relationship That agent may be able to refer you to You know a fellow agent that works within their same house or their same group In order to like keep you within the system and to make sure that you're still well supported as an author so it may not be a Start from scratch, you know pitching process again But yeah, there could be a number of reasons why it may be in your best interest to switch agents

Stephanie: 22:47

Yeah. No, lots of, lots of good information about traditional publishing. Cause I know we talked in an earlier episode about the option of small press. And so this is interesting to hear about the bigger houses and how to make your way. And connect with agents. And think it's also, what also came to mind as you were talking, where some other comments that when you're in the phase of going through the publishing, that it's always a good idea to get started on whatever your next project is, don't wait, know, until you publish your first book, just because you have an agent to then, Start, you know on your next project that there should always be something going on I know several authors who spoke at the conference. I went to talked about There's kind of this waiting period that seems to go on forever And that it's always good to have something that's distracting you and having another project is one or Picking up a new hobby. Some people talked about that to be able to not get so caught up in all of You The craziness that happens when you all of a sudden have this team around you that's, you know, buzzing about everything and asking you to make decisions that you're still working on your craft.

Elizabeth: 24:10

That's so right There was one of the agents that spoke heavily about that about there being a lot of kind of dead air time in These like months and months it takes you For even, you know, the publisher to get back to you about the edits they want to see, or you have to, you know, quickly turn around those within a month, but then it's going to be three more months of silence before you get to the next step. And her advice was absolutely, writers should be writing, you know, go ahead and start working on the next thing, because we're going to want See the next manuscript by the time, you know, this book comes out and we see how it performs, we're going to be ready to move with the next manuscript. So especially if you are writing a series or staying in the same genre, go ahead and be writing that next thing. That's, that's your opportunity. So I think this has been a great discussion of some of the, the big traditional publishing route. We're going to do a separate discussion on some of the, the indie route small presses, but we hope you've gotten a lot from our conversation. There's certainly lots of resources out there like these conferences that I went to online and that Stephanie attended as well.

25:23

Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of the Inspired Writer Collective podcast. We hope you found inspiration, insights, and connection to yourself as a writer. If you enjoyed this episode, please share, subscribe, and leave us a five star review. Remember, the power of storytelling lies within each of us, and by supporting one another, we can make a difference. We invite you to schedule a coffee chat with us on our website, www. inspiredwritercollective. com. Just like our style here on the podcast, our coffee chats are casual and a way to connect about your writing and discover if book coaching or joining our upcoming writing cohorts for memoir and contemporary romance writing are for you. You can also become a part of our community by connecting with us on social media. You can find us on Instagram and YouTube at Inspired Writer Collective, on TikTok at Inspired Writer LLC. Let's continue this writing journey together. You can find links in the show notes. Until next time, fellow writers, may your pens be mighty and your stories captivating. Happy writing!