Episode 38: [WRITING CRAFT] Having Fun with Character Development Using Coffee Chats

Have you ever found yourself stuck when trying to develop your characters?

You’ll find guidance in this week’s podcast episode, #38: Having Fun With Character Development Using Coffee Chats.  

Stephanie shares her experience approaching character development from the perspective of calling the process “coffee chats”. Whether you enjoy spending time in a coffee shop, or not, you’re familiar with the experience of meeting someone for coffee. 

You know a conversation you have over coffee is never linear and can ping pong between being surface level and full of depth. 

It’s what makes this approach so much fun. You imagine you’re sitting down to have coffee with one of your characters and you start asking questions. There’s no formula for what questions you ask first or last, and you don’t need to ask all of your questions at the same time. In fact, it’s recommended you space out your coffee chats over the span of time it takes to write your book. 

A coffee chat takes away the pressure of needing to feel like the process needs to be so formal. It eases the stress of thinking it needs to be done in a special way. There’s your way and that’s what matters. This is simply a way to frame it for having more fun. 

Your characters evolve over time. They encounter things you don’t plan for as a writer, and sitting down for a coffee chat can help you go deeper. You won’t know all of the answers at the beginning. 

Character development doesn’t happen in one sitting. It’s a process. 

If you’re like Stephanie and enjoy going to coffee shops, it can be fun to do your coffee chats with your characters in that setting. You might find inspiration from conversations around you, or from watching people. 

Coffee chats are not just for fiction writers. If you’re writing a memoir, you can use this approach to capture the characterization of people in your life who’ve influenced your thinking or were important to you. You can use it to answer the questions for yourself.  

You can bring depth to the voice of your character by using coffee chats. If you’re sitting there wondering why it matters for you to write your book, it’s because it’s your unique voice. No one else has your experiences. No one else has your world view. All of that comes through your coffee chats with your characters. 

Give it a try and let us know what you discover! 

You can also download a FREE PDF of 50 questions to ask your characters during a coffee chat here. 

We invite you to subscribe to our email list to be the first to know about our weekly podcast episodes and upcoming group programs for writers!

If you prefer video versions of the podcast or want to leave a comment on this specific episode, you can find all of them on our YouTube channel.

Transcript

Elizabeth: 0:00

Welcome back listener. We're so glad to be here with you today. We're going to be talking about character development And stephanie has used this aspect of character copy chats, and I know we've referenced this in a previous Podcast one of our early ones and we we didn't go into any detail at that point But today we're going to talk a lot about character development First, in fiction writing, which is what the Coffee Chats is centered around, and then I'm going to add some stuff that I have used for character development for memoir within my memoir course. So I hope you'll enjoy this conversation today about character development and how to get inside the head of either fictional character or kind of Assess your own values, beliefs, experiences that brought you to the particular mindset in which you're writing your memoir from. So, Stephanie, kick us, kick it off for us. I know that you use this exercise of what you call the character coffee chats in order to get into the mind. Initially of your characters and I know they've taken a little left turn here and there, but this we're talking today about like that initial process What does that look like for you? How do you do that? And and what do you get out of it?

Stephanie: 1:16

Yeah, so I love thinking about it as a coffee chat because of course, if you've been listening for a while, you know that I love coffee. I love going to coffee houses to work. Uh, you know, anything that's around coffee, I'm there. And so, um, I like framing it as a coffee chat, um, and I'm pretty sure this came about in a discussion with my book coach and in early stages of the development of my book. And I just grabbed onto this idea because really that idea of thinking about what it's like to get to know somebody. And oftentimes, you know, when you Meet somebody or you're getting to know someone. I mean, it's fun to get together and go to coffee. And even with a longtime friend, you know, maybe somebody you haven't seen in a while, it's fun to go and get some coffee. So like to think about it in that way, because then I feel like I can really relax myself and not feel like, okay, this has to be very, a very formal process. it's very much in the style of almost. Pantser or some call it discovery writing where, you know, you think about your character, you know, you pose a question and then you just essentially write down the first thing that comes to mind. So you might, you know, say like, well, you know, what did you do today? Just simple. Like just, you know, Something you would ask someone, you know, like, how's your day going? Or, um, you know, what are things that you like? What do you dislike? Uh, you know, you can get as even as detailed as like, Hey, like what's in your refrigerator? And, you know, and those are things that can begin to develop really more depthful about who your character is. Um, And, you know, certainly there are lots of resources out there, um, as a piece to accompany this episode, I'm going to actually create, put together my, my list of questions, uh, that I have that are scattered throughout my notes right now, because I haven't really put it together formally, but to have that available as a PDF download, uh, for you to find and reference, um, uh, And of course, you'll probably come up with more of your own, depending upon your genre, certainly specific genres. But I mean, when I think about, you know, my romance characters, it's like, you know, even questions like, have you ever been in love? You know, what was that like? Or, you know, What was your first date? First kiss? Um, and

Elizabeth: 3:58

parents relationship like what relationship role models did you have in your life? Yeah,

Stephanie: 4:05

yeah, I mean, I mean, you can really, I mean, you can really start to go, you know, in depth and layer your questions and it can be really fun because it's a very stream of consciousness process. To see what comes up and you're just imagining that you're having a conversation, like you're sitting in a coffeehouse. And sometimes this has actually proven more effective for me when I'm actually sitting at a coffee shop just because I'm surrounded by conversation and I, and I can really get that sense of the energy of the place. Um, you know, it's really up to you, but it. I didn't think that it would be so much, much fun as it is, but I mean, it's just a fun exercise to get more depthful about your character, as opposed to saying like, okay, I'm going to have a main character who's, you know, a woman in her thirties. Who's never had children. Who's a workaholic like, I mean, okay, that gives you something, but it doesn't tell you like, you know, what kind of brands does she like to shop for, where does she like to shop? Why does she like to shop there? You know, what does that say about her that she's, you know, picking certain clothes or wearing certain clothes and, you know, what the kind of, you know, Why did she pick the dog that she has? And what does that tell you about her? And where does she like to go to eat? And I mean, all of those layers that, of course, when you know the people in your life really well, they have a depth to them. You have an understanding about them that other people don't know about. And so it gives, and it gives you a lot more that you can bring in to your story.

Elizabeth: 6:03

it's so interesting because this is exactly the point I made with like memoir writing my sister was taking The last round of the course, and so I made the point that even though she and I grew up in the same household and have, you know, similar upbringing upbringing, when you look at all those kind of objective measures, we went to the same high school, middle school, all that, you know, and grew up in a similar environment. It's like there are going to be a number of things in which her worldview is different than my worldview, or that we've come to different conclusions on things, even from the same experiences, you know, we could talk about, you know, a childhood experience, maybe like a, you know, big road trip we took or, uh, any sort of like shared experience we had. We could have like a totally different takeaway from that, you know, so it is super unique and you've got to figure out what that is about your character. If you're talking about in a fictional sense or in a memoir, that's what makes every memoir different. That's what makes your voice unique. Like, yes, you could be going through the similar situations. You could have a similar, um, kind of plot line, right. Of like, Oh yeah, I'm talking about my divorce or I'm talking about, you know, The birth of my first child, but you're going to have a different takeaway because of your beliefs, because of your experiences, because of your dreams and wishes and values. Someone else who's going through that same experience. And that's what makes it engaging and interesting. And, you know, you, you jump into someone's story in the middle, you know, a lot of times with memoir, we're not starting at the beginning. We're starting somewhere in the middle where this, the person that we're writing about our past version of ourselves already comes into that moment with these beliefs and, You know, how trusting are they? How do they feel about relationships? Are they the kind of person that has, you know, a big friend group or very small friend group? And how do they view that? How do they maintain those, those relationships? Um, are they the kind of person that's good at maintaining long distance relationships or are they not, you know, and it's like, the reader gets to jump in and that, you know, present moment, wherever the story starts, but you also get to spark that curiosity of like, Oh, I wonder why they feel that way. And, and as you tell your story, you can sprinkle in a little bit more that gives some sort of indication about how you came to those conclusions or what past experiences, you know, impacted the way you view trust or you value friendship or, you know, You value the need to feel, you know, connected in your community or if you're okay, you know, as long as your house is good, you know, and the, the way that different people, you know, view their world and. And even what the depth of that, you know, is your world like your immediate family? Is it your family and your community or is it much more global than that? And that can really vary. And so I think it's such a good point to say that, like, as you're writing fiction, you got to think about those same sort of things in order to make that character feel more real, because we all know. Like as I'm talking, you know, you can hear me, you know, you're thinking to yourself. Oh, yeah, I think like this I think like that and so to create a fictional character who feels real you need to go through those similar like thought exercises and that's where I think the coffee chats are so valuable because you're You're pretending like you're talking to a real person and you're curious about All those things that may not come out in the story at all But you as the writer need to know what perspective you're writing from I love the concept of like what's in the refrigerator Because to me, it's like, is that the kind of person that, you know, always make sure they have what they need? Do they go shopping and only buy immediately what they need? Like all that's in their fridge, you know, on grocery shopping day is just a couple of condiments and, you know, half a gallon of almost spoiled milk. Like. There's so much that you could like draw from from those various aspects and to think about what that like how that person even Operates just by what's in their fridge. Is it full of leftovers? Is it, you know, half eaten that they, you know Keep pushing to the back of the fridge. Is there a certain sort of like eating style? Are they vegan vegetarian? Are they You know, are they being super healthy with their eating, or are they so busy that they, you know, it's all the frozen foods and the quick meals because they don't have time, and that's not what they value, you know? They value their time going into their work versus their food prep. Do they go out to eat all the time? And so it's all take out boxes, and like, the one packet of like, ketchup, you know? Like, there's so much that, that could like, aid in your understanding of a fictional character. By just even looking at that singular concept. And I think that's so genius.

Stephanie: 10:54

Well, I love it too. And I mean, I'm laughing cause as you're talking, I was just thinking, you know, in my head like, even when you watch movies or TV shows and you probably don't even like think that you notice this, but oftentimes. And, and I, I often see it happen in, you know, like romantic comedies, especially where there's, there's oftentimes a scene around like someone opening the refrigerator, you know, there's sort of that stereotypical, like bachelor pad

Elizabeth: 11:22

With a pantry, right? Yeah.

Stephanie: 11:25

yeah. Or the pantry or something, you know, where it's like, where it's just like bottles of beer and a takeout container or something. And for like the bachelor stereotype, or, you know, or like the, maybe there's, you know, Uh, female character and she has everything like very, you know, organized and labeled or, you know, different, different ways that, uh, people organize their refrigerators. And so it is, it is a fun one. And as I say, like I was thinking too, how, when you were talking about memoir, about the uniqueness of voice that carries over so well too into fiction writing is that the character that you're creating is, even though there may be. You know, elements, like I said, at the beginning, you know, a woman in her thirties, who's a workaholic, like you can find a lot of characters in books like that, but what is unique about the one that you're writing? And that's the key. That's where you bring, you know, your own life experience, because there's no way as a writer. And I mean, I've listened to lots of writers talk that. In some way, your own life experience, especially with fiction, is feeding it. And of course, you know, memoir, it's full on life experience and you're sharing your story. And. And that's the beauty of it is bringing that voice in there because that's what you want your reader to connect with. And to be thinking about, you know, what kind of character do I want my readers to connect with? And I was thinking about this too, because, and I've mentioned this in previous episodes, but you know, a book club that, uh, I was going to for a while in, uh, Columbia, Missouri for, you know, called the new romantics book club that was for reading romance books. there were often discussions around the books that talked about wanting more depth of character that sometimes a book fell flat because they didn't feel like there was enough depth to the character. And so that's why I love, you know, using this strategy of the coffee chat is because it allows you to have more depth to the character. as we are discussing now, I mean, it just to that You can add the detail and, and I would not recommend trying to do this all in one sitting. I mean, would recommend, you know, doing a little bit at a time, um, because you'll exhaust yourself and you'll find yourself sort of losing, know, your focus. At least that that's happened for me where I sort of feel like, okay, I like, I need to stop because I think I have enough for what I need right now for where I am, especially like, okay, at the beginning of the book, there's some things I need to know, like, you know, about like, Where my character lives and what their habits are and, and little things like that. And then things can change over time because of course, you know, with like a meet cute and what are some quirks that my character has, or, you know, and is this other character that she's meeting? Okay, now I have to do another. coffee chat. Um, so I certainly don't try to do it all at once. And I, and I, and I do it alongside my writing. And of course, I mean, everybody can have their own strategy. If you want to do your character coffee chats and have it like nailed down before you start, like, that's great too. You have to figure out what process works for you. Um, but since I was so ready to jump into the story. I just do it alongside. And so as I come to scenes, much like you think about like everyday life, I mean, you don't know from day to day what you're going to encounter or what's going to happen. And so it's that discovery idea of, OK, well, what next? All right. So the character is faced with, you know, a a challenge of some kind or an obstacle. Well, how do they handle that? Do they shrink away from confrontation? Do they not, do they avoid it? They don't want to have that conversation, or are they someone who's just like, I'm in this, I'm going to have this conversation. I'm going to say what's on my mind and they're going to speak their mind. So, you know, those are the pieces that then you're like, you sit down and you say to your character, okay, so, you know, how are you going to, how are you going to handle, you know, this person who is, you know, giving you a really hard time or how are you going to handle this family member? you know, you feel like is going to reject you if you make this choice. Like, how are you going to handle that? And then, you know, you kind of of consciousness respond, like, you know, maybe they're okay with it out with the family member, or maybe they, you know, slink away into the corner because. You know, they want to make this choice. They don't want to make the family member mad, but, you know, and so you're sort of playing around with those different ideas it helps you. And I really think it helps too with developing, you know, dialogue. And I know we're not like going deep into that, but I feel like it helps you have a sense of like, what would the character then say? Because if you're, if you're doing it as a chat and. A coffee chat. It's, you know, it's very casual. And so you're writing down from their point of view, first person point of view is how you're writing it down. Like, you know, your character saying like, I would do this. So then you, right there, you already have a whole bank of their words, essentially. Sure. They're coming from your head, but mean, there is kind of this. point in fiction writing where the character takes over and you feel like, you're like, wait, wait, what, wait, where are we going? Um, but that also makes it fun in that. And that's why it's a discovery process as you're discovering, you don't know all the answers up front.

Elizabeth: 17:28

Yeah, I think that was one of the things we kind of pinpointed in our critique of Just for the Summer, which was our book club book from last month, in regards to Justin. Because like, as you're describing or like, theorizing all these potential questions, like, I, I really can't come up with too many answers in regards to his character, like, what would he do in that situation? What is, what is he like? Like, yeah, I get that he's like a doting older brother, you know, you definitely get that as far as like a value system around like family and being dependable and all of that. But it's like, Where's, where's the nuance? Where's the depth? Um, And, not to say that, you know, Abby didn't necessarily do the thought process, but just as far as it showing up in the actual writing, you know, you and I both felt like his character was very, like, cookie cutter surface, and then there was some weird, like, stuff that seemed to go against the character that we had been presented in the, you know, first, you know, three quarters of the book, without any justification for why there was this sudden apparent, like, flippant response to something where he had been, you know, very, Empathetic and all in up into that point, you know, um, so even for just like Continuity of the character too. I think this exercise can be Really really helpful now. I get totally get the aspect of this coming kind of Early or in conjunction with your early writing that makes a lot of sense When I do the memoir course, I actually put it a little bit later And I I only get to be able to do that because we're writing about ourselves So there's you know way more structure about you know, the character you can't like invent, you know who you are So it's not as important for figuring out like those key plot points or the core message or whatever, because those those are what they are. They're confined by your life experience, but it is a really important exercise for going through. And then integrating that character development into your storyline. Because what we want to see, whether we're reading fiction or memoir, is we want to see this character evolve. Right? So we have like a certain point that we're starting from, and the beliefs that they have or whatnot. And at least in memoir, there's like a core misbelief, right? Like there's something that you start out with in the beginning that you think, You know, you need to do everything alone, for example, and then you learn that you can depend on other people and that community is important or whatever, whatever the misbelief is. But you have to show that to the reader along the way. And a lot of what I use for character development for memoir comes from Lisa Cron's Story Genius, and she uses these scene cards, which you can google, Scene Card Story Genius, and you can pull this up, but this is basically a, uh, two by two grid. Um, you've got your, your act and scene number, your, like, main plot point. You can include subplots on this, which I think is super helpful for when you're going to integrate in subplots. And then basically it's cause and effect for both the plot and the story. So, cause of the plot. Of the plot, effect of the plot, cause of the story, effect of the story. And the story piece is that internal kind of character development. And so what I found so helpful about this when I was doing a, uh, updated outline of my memoir, I found some gaps and holes by going through this process. And it encourages you to make sure that you're showing how the character is either reinforcing their old beliefs or starting to move towards new beliefs, questioning beliefs, um, and and making those developments and those, I guess, improvements, um, in their own confidence or their value of self or How they relate to others their trust in the world all those sorts of things And so what I love about using this for that outlining process and some of that early Planning of your story is that it builds in that character development with it So it's not just a static like who's your character at the beginning of the book, but also Encourages you as the writer to think about okay This plot point is going to happen You How is this going to change or impact how this character feels? So you brought up the, you know, concept of maybe the characters presented with some kind of option, but if they take it, they know that their family is going to be unsupportive. So there's a lot that's going on internally with that character, you know, inside their mind, inside their body. in that process. And so it's important to like map that out along with the plot point so that you can then show whether that's through dialogue or through prose describing, you know, their visceral reactions in the moment. So you can clue the reader into Whether this is, like, pushing against their beliefs, or they're leaning into their beliefs, or, you know, however this might affect the character to then take them into the next scene and make them just a little bit different, progressing that kind of storyline forward, not just through plot, but also through character development.

Stephanie: 22:49

Well, yeah, and you bring up a really good point about remembering that there is that important aspect of character development of creating the character arc that that your character does go through some kind of transformation, some kind of change over the course of time. The over the course of the book, because that's, of course, what a reader going into it is going to expect. It's like, okay, the character starts here. Now, where are they going? And why should I care? Um, and it's the same as you've discussed in memoir, because certainly you're starting at one point in your life. And over the course of time, there is a change that happens. I mean, that's, of course, one of the pieces when. People, you know, go and pick up a memoir. And I know with memoirs that I've read, you know, you're expecting something, you know, to shift for the person who's writing it. And, and oftentimes there's a lesson learned or something that you, as the reader can then apply to your own life. And I think that the same applies in fiction is that, you know, the character is, whether it's a, you know, internal struggle, external struggle, there's something, I mean, as we've talked about, you know, the hero's journey, all the different, you know, save the cat, all the different ways that you can plot out, uh, your book, there's going to be something, uh, where there's a change. And that's why, you know, I really like, as I say, doing my coffee chats. As I'm going along with the book, because I don't always know, I mean, or I haven't in my process right now. I mean, I haven't known like what the change is going to be. And of course, you know, my own storyline has shifted and changed a lot. And I've changed and I, and I think I shared that. I, you know, I finally like, Plotted out the whole book now. So I have an idea of where it's going, but I still don't have all the answers to questions that I have for my character of like, okay, well now how are you going to, you know, how's my main character going to talk to her, her dad when she has to tell him that she doesn't really want to be the one going through this process of him trying to buy the ski area because she's fallen in love with. One of the owners, you know, and so, know, all of those pieces. And so those are still to come as part of the character coffee chats. And as I say, like, I love, um, I mean, just in my mind, it makes it feel more relaxed, more calm, like less of a, like, oh my goodness, this is like, has to be so perfected. It doesn't at all. As I say, it's, I mean, it's very similar to, you know, the process I do when I'm doing, uh, morning pages, you know, inspired by, you know, Julia Cameron's process of where it's just pure stream of consciousness, three pages. It's like, okay, here's a list of questions and I'm just going to write. And, I'm also one who prefers to handwrite because I feel like that brings a more authentic response because there's that connection between hand, head and heart. That feel comes with handwriting, uh, that isn't quite there in the same way when you're sitting down to type. So, that's how I like to approach that process.

Elizabeth: 26:12

Yeah, and I think, too, with the coffee chat, it takes the character development piece from a just very intellectual place to a much more just, like, personable, like, real place, right? You're not intellectualizing what this character is like, and in doing so, you're creating what I think are just more life like fictional characters. And it makes total sense that you would have to do that, you know, periodically as you're writing, just like you would, you know, meet up for a friend, At the coffee shop. And one week they're feeling this way. And the next week they're feeling this way and life keeps happening. And a month later, now they give this response. Like that makes perfect sense to me that. You know when creating a fictional character you would need to have that same sort of approach like hey It's been a while since we connected what's going on in your life now, you know, where are you at now? So like I don't know what key points maybe, you know in your story or after you know some of those like major times of like conflict and um, maybe act transitions or you know Act three breakups or whatever, like it's time to then meet again with the character and be like, where, how are you doing right now? Like, how are you feeling now? Like, did you suddenly decide to stock your fridge with vegetables? Like what's going on? Yeah.

Stephanie: 27:32

Like, what's the, what's the mood?

Elizabeth: 27:36

So I'm so glad that you're going to be, you know, condensing some of those, um, questions that you have felt to be really helpful for your character coffee chats and being, um, and sharing those. How do people, how do you want people to get those?

Stephanie: 27:52

So the, the link will be in, there'll be a link in the description, uh, for those. And then it'll also, uh, You know, go out in the weekly newsletter when this episode airs. And so that's, uh, that's how you can, get the download. And of course, if you're already on our newsletter list, awesome. Thank you for subscribing. We love that you're following along with us every week. And if you're not, we encourage you, there's also a link in the description to subscribe so that you don't miss out on having these resources go right to your inbox without having to search for it yourself. It's definitely more convenient, uh, for all of us when, uh, Information appears in our email inbox. So listener, thank you for joining us. And I hope that you'll start having some coffee chats with your characters. And if you do, we'd love to hear about it. So comment, email us, connect with us, and we'll talk to you next time.

Elizabeth: 28:56

Happy writing!