Episode 39: [GUEST] Judging A Book By Its Cover with @rubreart

In this week’s episode, the first in a two part series, Elizabeth interviews Mariska Maas (@rubreart) about cover design. Elizabeth connected with Mariska on Instagram about book design, especially for writers who are interested in self-publishing, and so this week the emphasis is on cover design and next week will be about formatting the inside of your book. Mariska, who lives in the Netherlands, has been in the book design industry for a long time. As a fellow bookworm, she discovered the publishing industry as her avenue to connect her art and books. Mariska has her own company now where she helps indie authors create book covers that bring them the same recognition as they would receive from a traditional publisher. If you approach Mariska for your book design, the first step is to respond to a series of questions to provide as much detail as possible. The more detail you provide, the easier it is for her to make sure the cover displays important elements of your book and aligns with current industry standards for your genre. You need to have a good idea of what you want for your book because that allows for the best possible cover art. All of Mariska’s cover art is illustration, no photos, because it’s easier to align with current trends and it’s her expertise. If you were to decide to walk through the cover design process with Mariska, you would receive mock ups and have the opportunity to request changes and express your opinion about what you like and don’t like. What’s great about Mariska’s process is she wants you, as the author, to be happy with the outcome and she helps guide you to make sure you get the cover you want and that will be noticed in bookstores and online. Your book cover is your best marketing tool. Mariska recommends connecting with a book cover designer as soon as you have a clear idea about the book you’re writing. A lot of artists can get booked way in advance, so if you wait, you might not get the cover in the time frame you expect. So, start shopping around now, even if your manuscript isn’t ready. Peak your readers’ curiosity with the cover art, so when it becomes available, the cover is recognizable and readers will want to pick it up. It’s important to note that if you’re hoping to be traditionally published, there’s a very slim chance you’ll get to use a cover you have someone design for you because publishing houses often have a direction they prefer to go based on how they design their books in house. As an indie author, when you self-publish, having a book cover can add an element of excitement to your book writing process because you start to see your book come to life. When you see the cover, it’s the start of visualizing your book being complete and ready for readers. Your cover helps sell your book. You have 7 seconds to appeal to a reader. Even if your book is amazing, if the cover doesn’t connect with readers, you won’t sell books. If you’re listening to this podcast within 3 months of it’s launch date, so that would be up until November 25, 2024, Mariska is being incredibly generous to our audience by offering a 5% discount with the code IWC5 on the interest form you complete. You’ll want to jump on this opportunity as soon as possible because she’s already booking authors into 2025. It’s an investment in your writing to take the leap and hire a cover designer. 

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Transcript

Elizabeth: 0:01

Welcome back listeners. I am here today with Mariska Moss and let me tell you, I found her on Instagram because she is ever present. There has a bunch of wonderful posts, weekly tips that she walks you through the process of things to consider with interior formatting or cover design. For those of you who are self publishing and wanting to DIY your book, she is a great resource for that. But also we have her on the podcast today. Um, actually this is going to be a two part series. time we're going to talk about cover design and then we're going to have her back to talk about interior formatting in a later episode. Um, but this is going to be a real standout Interview today to get some tips and some tricks on both of those things As well as opportunity for a promotional discount to hire her for those services for those of you who are looking to Uh, maybe not do everything all yourself. Mariska Moss is the owner of the bookish design agency, Rupert Art. She is a passionate book designer and illustrator and has made it her goal to make a Cinderella one of a kind fit design for each and every book that she works on. And she worked on over 80 books last year, guys, no matter if it's for an indie author or a publisher, for anyone. deserves amazing covers, interior formatting, and extra illustrations. In her free time, you can often see her doing arts and crafts or reading a book from her never ending TBR or to be read list for those of you who don't know that acronym. So welcome Mariska. I know you just got back from a holiday. We're so excited that you've taken out the time to sit down and have a conversation Um, today about cover design. I know when you and I spoke separately before, uh, deciding to do this interview, I was so impressed with what all goes in. To your creative process and how you take, you know, a writer's for their book and some basic character descriptions what genre they're, they're writing and, and then you craft these gorgeous, very colorful and eye grabbing covers. I've seen them on your website we'll be sure to have all the links for the, the social media as well as the website in the, uh, Um, episode description for those of you who want to go take a look at that. Um, tell me a little bit about, A, how you got into this work, and then go a little bit into, like, what your process is.

Mariska: 2:42

First of all, thank you very much for allowing, for inviting me to come over. Uh, it's very lovely. I did not expect it. So I feel like an honor because it's my first podcast. Um, but let me get started on how I got into this business. I always was a huge bookworm and I was very creative and I was like, okay, how am I an artist without ending up underneath a bridge? Like the stereotype. So within college, I always made sure to specialize in books and publishing entrepreneurship and the. First moment I was able to do an internship. I made sure to do it at a publishing house. I sent out like 20 plus emails to all Dutch publishing houses because I'm from the Netherlands. And one publishing house decided to take a chance on me. And I got to designing my first books, including as well, my first cover, which was done for a YA and for a children's novel as well. So it was very much right into college, second year, my first internship, and truthfully from there on on. There and out, I kept staying in industry. I got another job for a third party agency which worked with indie authors, which is where my passion started as well, because I really loved the independent aspect of it. And I stayed on at the publishing house as well, but also in the segment of foreign rights. I started doing children's book illustrations, interior formatting, covers, and basically anything design related. So, yeah. That is what I've done in the last four years. And then as my college thesis, I started my own company, really wanting to focus more on bringing my traditional publishing expertise towards any offers as well, just to give them that little edge to make their book as professional as that big publishers out there.

Elizabeth: 4:18

I think it's amazing and when we talked before you talked about how You you take that extra step to make sure you are up to date on what is sort of the publishing trends Especially in like specific genres so that you're making sure that you deliver a book that is going to be relevant, you know, and not look self published. It's going to fit in on the bookshelf with all the other traditionally, traditionally published books. What is it that, um, an author gives to you in order for you to like start the design process? What kind of information are you getting from them? And walk me through what that process looks

Mariska: 4:57

So when I got into contact with an offer, there are two main things. They always need to focus on the technical aspects. So like, for instance, do they want an ebook cover, audio book cover? What dimensions are they using? And the creative aspect, this was what they wanted to depicts. So to make sure that I have everything that I need, I always make sure to send a very, very, um, elaborate form. So I can take like 10 to 20 minutes to fill in, but it will give me all the details and one go that I will need to make the cover that they need. So this can be anything from, uh, are there any important elements in your book? What is your genre? And most importantly, often is what free covers do you like? What do you like about them? Which style do you want to go to? Because when I have all the information in the world that I need, I can have the best possibility of making something that they like as well as that will match with the market.

Elizabeth: 5:49

That's amazing. And, and you have a pretty quick turnaround of like, once you get to that particular project, I know you book out pretty far in advance cause you've been, you know, increasing in popularity, but what is your kind of, um, draft process? I know you go through a couple of different iterations of edits and approvals from the author and updates and changes. What does all of that look

Mariska: 6:15

So in the past, uh, my turnaround time used to be about two weeks, but I'm slowly starting to realize that in the offers that there's a lot more. Then it comes to work of a publisher because there's a lot more guidance. She needs to take a few extra steps and sometimes it can be very personal for them. So they need a bit more time to think about it. So currently we're going towards the free week turnaround, which is quite quick. Um, but how it goes to work is. Same as you would do your own personal process. So you start doing research, which is for instance, by the form, uh, you go look and what genre, what bestsellers are there, what covers are they using and what matches with my style as well. Cause of course, um, I mostly do illustrational covers. So photo covers, that is not something that I can do and I don't want to do because then the cover wouldn't be up to par to what the, um, the current trends are, but normally I always make sure that the. Uh, offer is included in everything. So they fill the form and then they get free mock ups. These mock ups can be anything from quick sketches to sure to show the layout, the poses or all the elements combined, or depending on the simplicity of the cover, they can be full colored just to make sure that the layout makes sense. Then the author can be like, Hey, I love option one. I love the typography and everything. Um, but can we change these elements from option two and three and add them in? So this is like the really rough process where we can still change everything because it's really easy to change. And when we have that set all that, we have all the feedback and we Got rid of all the doubts, we can start on the final mock up. And that is where the fun part comes in. Because most of the time, that's when we start coloring, when we start adding the details, and the author can really see their characters and really their vision come to life. And if everything goes well, of course, we don't need to do that many more changes for the rest of the cover. If there are, we can always go back and we can change some elements until they're happy. And there's also the part where typography becomes a very big part because Although you really love illustration that really catches the eye, typography is just as important because it has to be readable. Um, most often it has to be seen from across the room because people see it in bookstores and they always see it as a very tiny picture on Amazon and you have to make sure that font matches the genre as well. I don't know if you might have noticed but thrillers for instance have very straight lines while fantasy has all those little swirls which I personally really love. Um, And we can start on those. And then once everything has been approved, everything is well liked, we start on the full rep, making sure that the blurb gets added, the spine gets nicely added, and add all the little details, like for instance, leaves on flowers and everything else. And then we do the very last check and hopefully not too many changes, which not often happens, because you keep in contact a lot during the whole process. You can wrap everything up, make sure it's perfect. PDF ready and send it all to the office that didn't get it ready for print.

Elizabeth: 9:13

And when is it that you recommend authors start on their cover design? I know when I asked you this question before, I was really kind of surprised by your answer. So I'm definitely interested to know, listener, if you're going to be surprised by this as well, because you had something genius to say about your, why you said this as well. So when do you recommend that an author start with a cover design process and why?

Mariska: 9:36

Truthfully, I would recommend anybody who has their main storyline figured out and who wants to get started with marketing to get their cover design because often covered artists can get booked six months in advance. I know the really pricey and the really popular ones even a year in advance. So before you even are put on the wait list and have an opportunity to work, that's really a long time away. And truthfully, your book covers your best marketing. piece because people will, will immediately get the vibe of your book from the image. I know people who just add books for it to be read because they love the cover and people will recognize it and once they have recognized something it is way easier for them to stick it in their mind than for instance a title that keeps popping up. And truthfully, you don't need a whole manuscript to be able to make your cover. Like for interior formatting, sure. Wait until it's done. Your formatter will like that way more, but for covers you just need to have the idea of what your book is. Um, maybe you're blurb, but often, depending if you discuss it with your cover artist, they can add it later. Same as the spine. But they don't necessarily need that much unless like a clear reason that you have. I'm afraid that you don't need the whole book.

Elizabeth: 10:47

That's what I thought was so about your recommendation was the fact that your cover is one of your best marketing tools. Whether you're writing a fiction and you've got the characters there featured on the cover so that the potential readers can already start to feel a connection. Like you said, the vibe gets portrayed. It's just we are visual as human beings and to be able to see something that So visual, like the cover, I mean, that's, that's huge for marketing. And I love that you bring that up because I think, especially those of us that are planning to go like the self publishing route, we're just trying to tackle one thing at a time, but by having just a little bit more like big picture perspective and maybe bumping your idea of your cover design to a little bit earlier in the process, you already have that marketing wheel going. And I think that's such a good. Concept to to bring up a lot of times we think of the marketing Oh, that'll come at the end when i'm like, you know a month from launching No, it really needs to be happening all the time. Like as soon as you start writing you can start marketing your book um, especially if you don't have much of a following or readership already and so But you know and so then that's totally That's totally a great insight. And I love the idea of doing that ahead of time. And especially when you're you're already knowing that you're going to have to be on a wait list, right? It's going to take a little bit before your name comes to the top of the queue with your designer. And you can use that time for writing. You're not sitting there twiddling your thumbs post edits ready to launch waiting for that cover design to come around. so I just think that's such great insight.

Mariska: 12:35

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, sorry.

Elizabeth: 12:40

was just going to ask a follow up for those like myself who think they want to self publish, but still aren't sure. Is there any issue typically with publishers if they go, if they do get their manuscript say accepted by a publisher and they say, Oh, I have this cover design already. Other than the fact that they had to pay the cost versus the publisher.

Mariska: 13:02

it really depends because not all publishers will take the cover from the offer themselves. It can be for several reasons. One could be that the cover artist, they license the cover image to the offer themselves and not to the publisher. So the publisher could, for instance, have to pay an additional cost. This could be 200. 400. Depends on how much the cover artist asks and the publisher could either be like, well, we do want to pay that or we do want, don't want to pay that. Or for instance, the publishing house might want something, a cover in a completely different direction to match better with their brand. Or they think like, oh, hey, the market works better in this way. So depending if you really want to be traditionally published, you have to keep in mind that if you do get a cover and you really love it, you might not actually get to use it, which is. It's quite a shame, but that is also part of the traditional publishing house because they are taking all the risk. They are the ones investing the money, while when you're self publishing, you're the ones taking the risk and you can do whatever you want. So that is something to do keep in mind. But the thing is, I know just to quickly add on the last point as well, is if for people self publishing, getting a cover is also very much a motivational thing because you can actually see physically your book coming to life because you're writing it for months. But when you do have the visual image, that is something that really helps as well as I've heard. Because it actually makes something physical for something that you've always had and it really brings it closer to your life.

Elizabeth: 14:28

Yeah, that's a great point. That, that motivation of like, well, I already have the cover. I've already invested, you know, financially in this. Plus, like you said, seeing it come to life and really just wanting to get it out there in the world, I think. Yeah, that's a huge motivation. What are some of the pitfalls that you see, um, for those people who are trying to keep their costs down on their self publishing and either try to do it themselves or they go with, like, I've seen some of these like bigger groups that you can pay, you know, of hundred to a thousand dollars for a cover design with limited input and limited, you know feedback and revisions What are some of the big pitfalls you see in going that route?

Mariska: 15:11

I think the biggest pitfalls that I've seen is that I have seen covers that people would personally not pick up in bookstores. Because they're trying to cut on budget and I can fully understand the sentiment But the saying is we all judge a book on its cover is Well, they say don't judge a book on its cover But we all know we actually do and if you have a cover that is not that appealing And that doesn't speak to a reader, they won't pick it up, they won't buy the book. And even though that the story inside might be really amazing. We're quite fickle creatures over a time span of an average of 7 seconds. And people don't read the book within that time span. And it's such a shame that some covers just don't do sales. And while I was doing my college thesis prints, I actually did research on this and an author who, for instance, redid their 10 year old covers to match a modern trend, saw an insane surge in sales once again, just because she rebranded them. So it actively has effects on that as well. And sadly enough another pitfall that I sometimes see is that Um, they do buy for instance from fiverr and actually spend money on using professional But as you said they don't get enough input or you don't have the skill So for people who do want to keep it low on a budget I know that there are like really really well made premades That you can do where you just have to change the title and they can do that and change the offer name And then you still have the visual that really matches with your book because some people have like hundreds of covers on their website And you can pick the one that exactly matches your book, still keep costs low, while also having a professionally designed book cover which will attract people. So that's like a little in between road if you do want to keep it on low budget and don't have the skills yourself.

Elizabeth: 16:54

Yeah, that's so they have a bunch of like pre designed things And then once someone selects it, then they basically remove it from their website. Is that kind of how

Mariska: 17:03

Yeah, exactly.

Elizabeth: 17:04

Almost like a template that you buy

Mariska: 17:06

Yeah, it's kind of like you just buy a stock image But instead of it being able to be reused by everyone you buy the singular, right? I think if you just google pre made book covers and then fantasy or whatever genre you have you'll be able to find tons of option options and I know that some are ranged from like a hundred dollar per book and some are even By 300 or like really expensive ones a thousand, but it's always cheaper than a custom Cover artist because I can imagine that it's not affordable for everyone So you have to grow with the ores that you got and if that means that you buy a pre made go for it. Definitely

Elizabeth: 17:41

and I know you yourself offer Two different brackets you have your like simple covers and I love that on your website You actually have some visual examples of what you define as a simple cover and then you have the more detailed covers So those are two different price points, right? So you can still have something that is you know that the author gives the input Input on that they design with the elements and features and symbolism that's relevant to their book but they can choose a more simplistic design and You know save some costs that way versus you know Something that's got like multi layers and trim and fancy lettering, which is

Mariska: 18:18

Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: 18:19

really cool Stunning and may ultimately be worth the additional

Mariska: 18:22

Yeah, absolutely

Elizabeth: 18:24

other thing Is that you've been so generous to our listeners here at the inspired writer collective and you're offering a promotion of a five percent discount To any of our listeners if you listen to this podcast within three months it launching you can use the code iwc5 on your um, was it submission form or interest letter where you're giving all the details about your book and what design element you're looking for Um, so that's another thing To that you've been so kind to do for our listeners and this I think topic is similar to the cover design, but you also do just standalone illustrations as well, right?

Mariska: 19:06

yeah, absolutely I do. Um, this illustrations range anything from chapter icons, paragraph separators, to full on children's books illustrations, or character art. I know that the, one of the last drawings I did was a bit spicy, not full on, but it ranges from, let's just say, from three years old to 18 plus. So I do everything, and that's also everything within a certain price class. It all just depends on what your budget is, uh, what you want, and then we can discuss everything from there.

Elizabeth: 19:40

Very cool at this point currently at the time of this recording What is your current like lead time or wait time like if someone were to say? You know, tomorrow to submit a form. I want to cover design. What's the current like wait time frame?

Mariska: 19:56

Currently, because I am only one person sadly enough, I am, uh, starting to get fully booked until the end of 2024. So, I am taking slots from January onwards. I am going the full month of February to Brazil, uh, but I will be available also from March. So, if your book is coming out in 2025, I have slots open for the full year and I would love to keep one available for anyone who's interested.

Elizabeth: 20:23

Amazing. Amazing. Um, any other pieces of cover design eye catching Ted bits or anything to share Before we wrap up this conversation

Mariska: 20:38

one thing that I always love to do with cover design is what I also sometimes see with more YA. Is the elaborate illustrations and then making it wrap around the full cover So that way you do not only have a pretty cover But if you remove all the text you also have a white artwork that you can use for art prints for bookmarks For marketing purposes for everything which is also what I always include So you get everything in one or for instance If you do not want to have a full cover designer What people sometimes tend to do is just hire an illustrator and put the typography on it themselves Because that is also something lovely they can do. So if you have an Instagram artist, or a TikTok artist, or whatever platform you're using, and you really love someone's art style, just try to have a conversation with them about it. And even if they're not, like, used to book covers, you can be like, Hey, I love these book covers design, this layout, I want the title on the bottom, offer name on top, can you make something that will fit that text? And then you can go from there as well.

Elizabeth: 21:39

Very cool. right, listeners, this is our conversation on cover design. Like I said, this is going to be a two part series. So look out for our next episode on interior formatting, which comes a little bit later in the writing process and then the publication. Um, but please remember to follow Mariska. She is on Instagram and TikTok. She has weekly videos about tips and tricks. So there's so much more information than what we're covering in these conversations. But she gives really great advice and examples. I watched one earlier about Um, where she shows you the three mistakes you might be making with your spacing. Um, so there's tons of great content there. So please give her a follow. And thank you again for being with us today, Mariska. I appreciate it. And now I know we're just going to have some fabulous covers coming out of this group.