Episode 44: [GUEST] Healing Through Storytelling From A True Crime Survivor's Perspective with Lenore Rattray

Episode 44: Healing Through Storytelling

If you’re interested in memoir, here’s another great episode of the podcast that follows an emerging theme we have going right now focused on the power of sharing our stories. In this week’s episode, Elizabeth talks with Lenore about how her need for healing, after experiencing a myriad of health symptoms, encouraged her to create a podcast dedicated to sharing her story about being a survivor of a true crime. But, it was ultimately through the process of writing her stories that she found healing. When mental and physical illness started to take hold of her life, Lenore met with a psychologist who shared with her the impact PTSD can have on your life. If you’ve experienced any trauma, you may be familiar with the toll it can take on your well-being. Lenore started to use writing as a therapeutic tool, much like our guest, Cheydrea, from last week’s episode, and it became her most important strategy for managing the intensity of her emotions. The healing was not overnight. It took Lenore years and years to work through the trauma she experienced. We often start to layer our trauma and because of how our culture functions, we keep moving forward without looking back. However, the compounding effect of this can be detrimental to your health, and that’s what Lenore started to see in her own life. While we all have different experiences, we can learn so much from each other’s stories. There’s a common understanding about the journey of overcoming experiences and processing the feelings that can be relatable. When you know you’re not alone there’s so much healing that happens and your story can help someone else navigate their life. 

I think that's why the power of telling our stories, no matter the details of the trauma or the hardship that we went through,  it's the process of overcoming and the feelings and the um, coping mechanisms that are very relatable and that's, I think, knowing that we're not alone in those, that's how we get through and I think that's what's really powerful about memoir.  - Lenore

Lenore’s own podcast was her approach to recording her experience as a way to get her ideas out so she can eventually write her book. Her focus was on the power of the survivor and the qualities all human beings share for survival. Often the focus in true crime is on the perpetrator because of our fascination with criminal minds as a culture, but what about the survivor?

 While Lenore was working with the psychologist and remembering her experiences, writing allowed her to have some emotional detachment from her experience. She discovered her strength was through writing her stories which allowed her to get it out of her and onto paper, and she found her voice through the creation of her podcast. If you think you can’t remember something, start writing about it and you’d be amazed at what you can remember. 

 I think that's, you know, that's the power in, in a good story told  a way that, um, really allows the reader to, to find, um, their own journey because, I mean, that's the point. -Lenore

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Transcript

Elizabeth: 0:00

Welcome back listeners. It is my honor to introduce you to Lenore Rattray. Now Lenore is the head of a podcast called Stand Up 8 and its first season started in March of 23. Now at the age of 21, Lenore, in the summer of 1992, was the survivor of a robbery, a nine day kidnapping, and assault. And her podcast is her storytelling from the survivor's perspective of a true crime that occurred in Canada. Um, this was fun. It's fascinating, Lenore, to listen to, I listened to your first episode and I jumped around and listened to, um, a later episode about storytelling and the impact of storytelling, and we don't have to drive, dive straight into that piece yet, because I know that comes a little bit later in the story, but your overall purpose, I think, is so, such a fresh take on true crime and wanting to tell the perspective of the story. From the survivor versus the fascination that comes with true crime of I loved what you called the fascinating monster referring to the perpetrator and how, you know, so much of the time media and even the consumers of this kind of genre. Love to dig into and pick out the motivations and the why and how could they have done this? What were they thinking? Oh, and here's where they almost got caught, but you flip it on its head and you have so much rich detail in your storytelling and you're telling it from your own perspective and It was so engaging. Um, so I'm really curious what it was that pushed you to tell this story.

Lenore: 2:01

Um, well, yeah, that's a very kindly then I, what pushed me? Well, it did. There was a lot of layers in it. And, um, I think the main driving force behind the push was, was my health. Um, it came pretty apparent through a major health issue. crisis, for lack of a more simpler way of putting it, that I was, I was mentally and physically getting very ill. And there was a lot of challenge to find out why that was. And was only through the amazing work of a psychologist that I was, I was forced to see because was affecting my work, um, but I saw a psychologist back in 2015, I guess, most, we started to click in 2015 and through The first couple of sessions, she presented to me the idea that you, I think you have PTSD and I, I laughed and much like the results of the many other medical professionals I was seeing that couldn't give me explanations as to why I was having stroke symptoms, cancer symptoms, heart attack symptoms. This was another one. And the first thing I said back to her was, I haven't been in a war. And really opened it up and it wasn't necessarily overnight, but she educated me on what PTSD is and the long term pervasive impact it can have, the compounded effect. it was through writing as a therapeutic tool that I realized that by not telling my story, I was. I was getting very much sicker and

Elizabeth: 4:15

hmm.

Lenore: 4:16

started to see and understand the connection between your mental health and your physical health. So that's really where it started. It

Elizabeth: 4:28

starting point. That's something I've reflected on. That's something that I've talked to other guests who have written memoir, or the one I worked, uh, recorded with recently, which will be a week or two before this episode. Um, if you guys want to go back and look at that one about someone who wrote memoir and then ended up using it in the form of poetry instead, she also highlighted the physicality of the health, not even just the mental health, so much of that we brush aside when it starts to, you know, take a downhill slope, but then it's like starts to manifest itself in these physical ailments, you know, Whether that's, you know, the sleep or for you, like very significant things like with, like you were saying, like the cancer stroke kind of symptoms and, and, uh, uh, confusion about what could be causing that. You know, and it's, it's, it's wild and fascinating and also just really cool the way that our stories just have to be told, right? Like, they will continue to nag at us until we're ready. To tell them in whatever capacity that looks like, like you had mentioned, simply using writing as a form of therapy, which I assume, at least in the beginning was purely for your own or between you and your, you know, psychiatrist or psychologist, you know, like that, that was just for you at that point. But even that starts to alleviate some of the symptoms and, uh, allows for that healing and that growth and that understanding, right?

Lenore: 6:16

does. Yeah, it was, um, and like, I can't emphasize enough that it wasn't overnight because I mean, this was, This was years and it wasn't, I can't say that everything bad in my health and my mental and physical health is related to that crime that I survived. but it certainly leaves a pretty heavy mark. And then when you have other traumas of life that, that either lay below it or Might go on top of it, the compounded effect on our systems. That's that was a revelation to me because most of us have this drive to keep going, moving forward. And, and, and that's what I was trying to do. even though I wasn't necessarily hiding the story, would tell anyone who, who wanted to talk about it. I use it as part of my career path. But, I wasn't, I just wasn't owning its true impact on me, if that makes any sense. And then the other part in that, to answer your question before, what motivated me to write this? Well, this breakdown of my health also coincided with my experience as a first time mother. if you've ever had a child, um, it does change your mindset. It, uh, any types of, uh, vulnerability brick walls you've built, it, it, it takes a good chunk out of them if not destroying them all together. And you know, that really, especially having a daughter around the time that she was two, two and a half years old, I can see in hindsight how, motherhood Tried to destroy me, it was connected mental, package that I hadn't dealt with. So, yeah.

Elizabeth: 8:25

It's interesting you bring up motherhood. I remember taking one of those like personality tests back when I was still in my forensic science career. And a coworker was really confused. And she said, she was talking to the, the lead person was like, you know, I I've taken this thing out three times now. And it says I'm a new personality type than what I was before. And, and the leader was like, Oh yeah, that can happen. If you guys experienced trauma. You know, such as motherhood And like listed that it's one of the like key traumas that could result in a total like personality switch according to the you know, meyers briggs testing like they've seen that like it's it's something that can happen and so You know as much as it's sort of like An anecdotal like oh, yeah motherhood changed me kind of thing. Like it literally changed me Does

Lenore: 9:19

yes.

Elizabeth: 9:20

and will

Lenore: 9:21

And we don't talk about these things, and, and, you know, You know, there's no fault of anyone's, um, it's, it's, we're all unique, we're all different, we all have these, these, uh, depending on what's going on in our life, the impact of what has happened will be different. Um, but I think as we talked about earlier before we were recording, We all, we're more alike than we've realized and I think that's why the power of telling our stories, no matter the details of the trauma or the hardship that we went through, it's the process of overcoming and the feelings and the um, coping mechanisms that are very relatable and that's, I think, knowing that we're not alone in those, that's how we get through and I think that's what's really powerful about memoir.

Elizabeth: 10:18

for sure. I was listening to, you know, the first episode earlier and you know, you talk about that whole like time in your life, right? You had just moved, so you'd left your home and you're like being an adult. Right. And you're talking about that, like on we of being in that job, the board of like sitting at the desk and cleaning this counter that you just cleaned yesterday. I, it like, so much. So put me in that place. It was so relatable to like that same kind of like early jobs that feel really kind of meaningless You know, you're just trying to get your foot in the door somewhere. You're making the copies. You're making the coffee You're doing going through the motions, right? Like you just captured that that was so relatable even though I can't relate to the robbery the kidnapping all those other pieces like At least not in there like the exact way but it was you captured that sort of Quintessential like Early adult, like, is this really what my life is going to be like? Kind of sense of, wow, this is so boring.

Lenore: 11:20

Yeah, it was well, and it was a shock in so many ways and, um, comparative city, comparing the city's Calgary to Vancouver in those days. And even now, uh, Vancouver is, um, a much bigger city and the level of, of homelessness and crime and addiction and poverty. And, you know, it's, it's. Um, it's, it really slaps you in the face, so, so that, um, certainly added to it all as I, as a 21 year old, you know, stuck in, in a land where everybody speaks my language, but, yeah, it was very different. Um, you made me think of something when you were talking about the relatable, side of things. It was one particular memoir, um, that really made me realize I, how I want to write and what I want to write. And it was, um, Westover's Educated.

Elizabeth: 12:20

Oh, yes.

Lenore: 12:21

Even though, and I think that was in 2018, 2017, 2018, when that came out. And I've read that book probably at least three times, um, since. And every time it lands with me very different, but still very powerful. And it's not Because her story, I'm, I have not, my life has nothing to do with being a Mormon survivalist. Um, and what she went through, The details very, very different to anything I can relate to, but the way she talks about the impact and the coping and the way she also just makes the reader um, she never labels the religion. You never walk away thinking, in my opinion, anyway, that the, that religion is bad or something, or her father is bad or her brother was bad. Um, you can just. just tapped into vein of the messaging behind it. And it was, it was being your own person and overcoming and finding your way. I think that's, you know, that's the power in, in a good story told a way that, um, really allows the reader to, to find, um, their own journey because, I mean, that's the point. And that's the point behind doing the podcast. Um, was my mentor who is, uh, a lead. mentor at one of our major universities here, Simon Fraser University. He also has a background in having a radio show with our major broadcasting agency, the CBC. So his ear is on both sides, and when he heard me telling my story, he was, um, he felt that that, As someone who aspires to write a book, as we know, writing a book isn't the most simplest and efficient of tasks. He said, let's get it into, let's record it and let's basically create your book in eight episodes and let's look at more the core that kept you alive, as opposed to uh, just telling the crime story, um, which would take us away from leaning towards the bad guy and, um, the, the, you know, what's perceived as the power in what he did. Let's look at the power of the person that survived and look at those common veins of survival that we all have in us. And we all, um, we all need to pull out sometimes. The compliance, the adaptability, the shutting down, like, can those all be, uh, can we look at those in a way that isn't necessarily a negative and how it helps us, um, to keep moving forward. So.

Elizabeth: 15:15

Absolutely. Um, I want to talk to you a little bit about your writing process because I was very impressed with the level of detail, how descriptive you were. And I know that, uh, Trauma can really have like, you know, polarizing impacts either, you know, our brains try to protect us and we remember nothing of it, of what happens, none of the details, or like, we're on hyper alert, hyper vigilant, all of our senses are turned on and we remember everything and it certainly seems that you indicated at least in your early episodes, you know, that, that, that was kind of the impact it had on you that you just remembered, you could recall, you know, So much of the conversation and just what was happening even before. Your body knew that that would be something significant It was still registering at least on some level that it was

Lenore: 16:12

Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: 16:12

out of the ordinary at least I would say um And so i'm curious what that was like with your writing process Did did that detail come back easily for you? And I say easily not in like a Not difficult way because I'm sure that was very difficult to relive a lot of those moments as I know it is for many of us writing memoir. Um, but were those readily tangible there or, or did it take some time to sit and really think through? Those days well, what was the writing process like?

Lenore: 16:49

Um, well, it's, yeah, it's, I guess. on, recently, um, the words came out, um, less emotionally attached, and I think that's one of the biggest challenges. Early on, as I said, when I, uh, went, um, through treatment, uh, through the psychologist, which, uh, the same psychologist I still see today, and she is She's really the only reason I'm perceivably as sane as I am. But honestly, she's, I mean, there's so much, um, that I have to say in a positive light that we need, we need to have access to, to mental health care. And I've been very fortunate that I attach with someone who just got me finally. Um, so in our therapies initially, um, She took me through some therapies that actually are given to war vets and things and they involve, um, they involve a real immersive exposure sense and a lot of it is being, is, is vocally, um, going there. And, um, I couldn't do that. I, it was, it was, It was just horrible and traumatizing. And so she knew that my strength was in writing. And that's where I started writing the detail. Um, and then I would read that back to her in our sessions and, um, the simplest of things. were just gut wrenching to tell. Like in the memoir or in the podcast, I, I, I tell pretty detailed stories of what happened and, and to answer your question, yes, those have always, weirdly, they've just always been there. the difference is through therapy over the years, and just building myself, I find now even. Revisiting statements that I had the police had taken right immediately I was rescued, as well as transcripts from the courts and things like that and really hearing my words. It was fascinating how those words were in my were in my mind already. But the difference is now the emotion isn't attached. Um, I still, I still get, I go there emotionally and to that sad place when I think of that girl and that 21 year old that, that was forced to do all that, that was forced to, to live that. Um, so that's hard. And then that also attached to motherhood, but in terms of remembering the detail, um, weirdly always just been there. I can watch a movie and not remember the movie that I saw, you know, whatever, recently or even not so much, but that experience and, and I don't know if I've really put a finger on why, um, but it's, it's, maybe it was the counting, um, part of it or I don't know. It somehow, it just, it, um, it's pretty solid. And somebody also

Elizabeth: 20:26

You're

Lenore: 20:27

that when be surprised that what comes out when you think you can't remember something, start writing and you'd be amazed at what comes out. And, and I can truly attest that that's very true. That's very true. So, yeah,

Elizabeth: 20:42

that experience as well and I just got it I just have to give you you know kudos for just how Immersive and engaging your writing is I mean you're you're You're speaking for the podcast, you know, you're reading your story, but you know, it's, it's, I just found myself like being able to visualize so much of what you were describing. You're so descriptive. And, um, even when you were talking about, You know, the little details like you remembering how like painful your eyes were getting because you've had your contacts in for three days like that's such a an amazing detail for communicating to the reader, the passage of time and the impact that this is having the like escalating impact right in just such a small. Way of like, here's my eyeball and it is hurting because it is dry and I still have these contacts in, but I'm fearful to say anything because I don't want this being taken away from me as well. You know, it's just. It's such a great way to encapsulate on a very tangible level. Again, something super relatable for anyone who wears contacts and you've left them in overnight accidentally or after a late night or whatever. Um, and just being able to like use that. As just one little detail of the way that your whole body and system is, is continuing to deteriorate or become more aggravated by being in this environment and not having the proper. You know, hygiene, nutrition, et cetera. Um, I just thought that was such a, a great detail to really like focus on and take a minute to really describe because it, what it represents in a broader sense.

Lenore: 22:47

No, that's, I appreciate that. Thank you. It's, um, I guess that's kind of where my brain goes, um, when I'm, and I'm not saying anything's wrong with true crime, but, um, I think we just need to think about why we glorify these It's very disturbed, sick individuals, you know, they're, it's really the only thing we need to glorify is the fact that they are disturbed and sick. The detail in what they do and the fascination is, um, it sometimes can be, uh, a bit overblown. And I think in telling the story of how somebody who's surviving this, like the simple things in life, right? We don't, when we see a, A movie or, uh, you know, something that's depicting, uh, someone of this criminal mindset doing these things. We see just a lot of terror and fear and we see, you know, this high level, just, um, almost. just limited, uh, level, but intense level of emotion that this person is experiencing. But in a lot of ways, and you know, and that's the story that I feel is untold, the terror is in the moment by moment in the, in the simple things that you don't get anymore. Like your ability to go to the, you know, privacy when you're going to the washroom, the contact lens wearing, you know, my, Long term worry that wearing my contacts for what it was at three, four or five days in a row or something. What was that doing to my eyes? you know, the simple things like that and just the how as humans when we're in these situations, we're not necessarily sitting there just. in terror, sometimes our survival is internal, and sometimes we just have to do things, like for me it was the counting, like I counted, like I don't know why I started counting, but I talk about that in the podcast, and that kept me grounded, um, watching the bugs crawl around, you know,

Elizabeth: 25:09

Right. Getting acclimated to the bugs. You talk about how like, you know, early on it was like, it was like torture. It was a different level of torture because they're always touching you and moving. And, and then you just, I don't know, this acceptance where you don't even like feel them or you can just observe them as like a neutral third party almost, you know, and showing that like kind of mental shift in the The different things our brains do, right. Um, when we're in those sorts of situations to keep us more distanced from what we're experiencing in our bodies, right.

Lenore: 25:45

Absolutely. And I think we can all, you know, maybe that's relatable. That's the adaptability piece and the compliance piece. And, we do that in a lot of ways in our life. And we just, um, And a lot of times we will look back and think, I can't believe I thought that that was normal, you know, so I guess that's my intention in telling the story in this simple, simple sort of way. Um, it wasn't, um, it wasn't my choice to tell it this way. As I mentioned before, my producer, his name is J. J. Lee, and he just, he took this on as, something that he felt, um, he had a vision for, and I just, I trusted and followed because just felt good to talk about it, to be honest. And I, and I think that's really the messaging that, um, That I try to, that I try to convey as much as possible and, um, is the power of owning your story and the power of telling your story. It doesn't have to be public. Um, it can just be to yourself, but the power of addressing that, um, in, in you is, is so strong. So that's my experience and, you know, it's been many years of, of, of. looking at why and how to do that too. I always knew. Right from the get go, um, and it's funny looking back, and I'm lucky that I have my words documented because it was connected to a crime, right? Um, it's like my form of a journal, and I can look back at these statements, and then this one article that I wrote where I was mad at the media for, you know, putting me in a, in a light that, um, I don't, didn't feel was accurate, and, but it's like I was 21, 22, 23, and I was doing this, and I'm like, there she is! They still

Elizabeth: 27:43

Your rage, when he's reading the article and the article says that you have brown hair, Oh my gosh, it was so relatable again. Like these little nuggets that you include that just like this human aspects where it's like. We as outsiders can no longer convince ourselves that like, Oh, well this could never happen to me. I can be distanced from this. But like, I would be outraged if I have been, you know, missing and the description of me is garbage. And the photo chosen is like, Not helpful. It's like you I've seen some of these like memes or reels of like the the followers of true crime like putting together their own like Descriptions and photo for if they go missing here's the folder that you give to people so they can actually find me again, like just I could, I could so empathize with your frustration in that moment of like, this is supposed to be helping. How are you ever going to find me when you can't even get the description right? So good. So good.

Lenore: 28:53

Well, and it saved my life, too, because he, he was so surprised that I was, you know, I, I, and that's, so that's another part of the story is, is, showing I guess there is a human being there somewhere, and whether that is something that is workable in all scenarios is, is, um, something I'm convinced to, um, have any sort of expertise in, but in my situation, somehow appealing to Hughes, his human sense and him seeing me as human. Um, with everything else in the world of fate involved, it kept me alive. And, and, you know, I guess this is what I've got to work with. And this is, this is the story really that almost killed me or made me really, really sick. And, and, um, it just feels good to talk about it. So that's where it's at. And I want, I want my daughter to, um, Again, I blame her for my, downfall, but she also, also saved my life. She made me realize how I wasn't coping healthily with, with this and forced me to deal with it. So I don't know. I mean, it's, it's a way of looking at something from a different light. And I think, you know, we're in a, we're in a time where we have so many communication tools. So. I'm adding a piece out

Elizabeth: 30:29

I love it. So, in these last few minutes of our episode, what is next for this story, for season two? Are you going to do a season two of the podcast? What, what comes next?

Lenore: 30:45

Well, world domination is always something to dream about. Um, um, I just would like to see this kind of messaging, um, reverberate out there. And, um, as we talked about in the very beginning, we're all saying the same thing and whether, whether it was something happened to us, Um, you know, an internal sense in a home. It was an uncle. It was, a family friend. Um, whatever it was, trauma is trauma. And. We're all saying the same thing and, and, the more that we can have relatable, uh, connections to the cores of these stories, I think the power that has power with it. So what's next for me is to tackle this in a few different ways. Um, I have a business that I. It's a, it's a health tech company that would be a portal of resources that people can access that is vetted, that are, um, really focused on post traumatic growth. I am passionate about, um, being a voice in building that community. I. Want to write my memoir that's that's next in actually a written form that would really go into more of the stories and and the the stuff that you find in the podcast, but but as we know the movie version is never quite the same as the book version that's that's a channel um yes, there is a season two and more planned for, um, Stand Up 8 and that would fall in line with, with these community voices that I hear. And it's really looking at what does it mean to be a survivor today and still going back to the impact of the crime because it never leaves you. There isn't a day in my life that I don't think about that in some way, shape or form. And I'm not like I sit down and dread it, but. things. Every night before I go to bed, I'm a, I check the locks at least three times. And I tried to do two, and I still sometimes have to get up and do that third one, you know, so it's always there and it's okay, that's

Elizabeth: 33:26

Yeah.

Lenore: 33:27

normal, they're usually always locked, so that's a good thing, um, but yes, bringing in the community voices, um, and just those relatable bits and showing that, um, we're all, um, We're all moving. We all want to move forward. At least a good majority of us and the more that we can interconnect, I think, um, it can, it'll spread out. I mean, there's, there's a lot of good, um, to be spread. And unfortunately, um, I don't want to media as bad, but fear, fear and fear mongering sells. So uh, let's look at the voices that are the positive. Um, with some of the nitty gritty in there and let's tell some stories. So yeah,

Elizabeth: 34:21

Yeah. You posed this question in one of your episodes, so I'm going to leave this, um, for the listeners to ponder. And, um, thank you. And the question you pose and then later, you know, answer throughout your episode. And that I think we've answered throughout this conversation is, is the ability to tell a story of strength. So listener, I hope you'll take some time. Think about that. Hop over to Lenore's podcast stand up eight. We will have links to that in the show description um again, it's Captivating story and I hope you'll follow along in Lenore's journey. Thank you Lenore for being here Thank you for sharing your story Thank you for opening our eyes to just a different perspective of looking at something, um, in just a different way, right, and taking true crime and kind of flipping it on its head and, and providing just such keen insight, um, yeah, and then just a refreshing, um, Needed way. So thank you again for being here today.

Lenore: 35:27

Thank you for the, for reaching out. This is, um, yeah, it's been a pleasure. It's nice to, to meet you and nice to a like minded, um, synergy in what we're doing. So yeah, thank you for what you do.

Elizabeth: 35:42

Absolutely. Please like, share, subscribe to the channel. Please give us a review on Apple podcasts. We love to hear your feedback and we'll see you again next week.