Episode 53: Intrinsic Motivation for Writers

This week on the podcast, we discuss our takeaways from reading Daniel H. Pink's book Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us.

The book challenges traditional views of motivation based on rewards and punishments.

Daniel Pink argues that intrinsic motivation - driven by autonomy, mastery, and purpose - is key for creatives.

Tune in to learn more about how we connected our reading of this book to the writing process.

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Transcript

Elizabeth: 0:00

Welcome back listener to season two of the Inspired Writer Collective podcast. As you may have known, we took some time off in December to start planning for this second season. I've got a number of great guest episodes that'll be coming your way that I've already been recording. And this is our first episode of the new season in the new year. I am here with Stephanie, my co host, and today we're going to be talking about Intrinsic motivation for writers. And a lot of this conversation comes around the book Drive by Daniel H. So this is a book that I read towards the end of 2024. And then Stephanie read it within the past few weeks. But it's a topic I've wanted to bring to this podcast for a while. Because so many of these online writing programs, even ones that I've participated in, use that, external punishment or reward system or as we will refer to as carrot or stick method in order to coerce yourself into getting your writing done. Um, so that can look like a lot of different ways and we'll spend the first couple of minutes talking about why that can be so detrimental to your writing process and then the rest of the time we're going to shift focus to the intrinsic motivation, the source that that inspiration needs to be coming from in order to And there are three key elements that Daniel Pink goes into in the book in order to tap into and foster intrinsic motivation. That is autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And while I think many writers feel a deep sense of purpose in their writing and maybe even autonomy, especially if you're self publishing or you're not having to follow a really strict structure, That mastery piece is an area we're going to really dig into in our conversation today because there's some awareness we need to have as writers about the way that we develop as writers and that it takes time and so that's where our conversation is going to go today. So thank you for joining us here today and thank you for coming back for season two. So to kick it off, when we talk about like the carrot and stick model, those external factors in so much of our day to day, that's what's used. Stephanie, I know you can speak to like the metrics and the punishments and reward systems that you experienced in the school system. I certainly experienced this with our quotas and things when we were talking in the forensic lab about getting our casework done. And it's just not Very motivating. And at some point, even if you are bringing some intrinsic motivation to the job, like you feel a sense of purpose as you lose that autonomy, as you lose the ability to make your own decisions or to complete a project with the people you want to complete it with, or how you want to complete it, then a lot of that motivation falls off. And then that becomes like, you're just like, you know, having to force yourself. I, um, to kind of go back to, and I've talked about this before on the podcast, the initial way that I started writing my memoir was doing this like 30 day email course. And one of the very first things that the course had you do

Stephanie: 3:20

Okay.

Elizabeth: 3:44

I knew I would end up with caffeine headaches. I knew that I would be miserable and that would be enough to keep me motivated. to, you know, complete the writing tasks. But now after reading this book, after seeing all the research that backs the detriment of external motivators and the benefits of the intrinsic motivation, I can see that this approach is absolutely the wrong way to go.

Stephanie: 4:12

Well, and it's, it's so interesting that, I mean, just all the things you're saying, because, especially when I think about my experience. is there's so much around my time in the classroom as a teacher that was incentive based or, you know, do these things or else, you know, you're not going to get your performance goal for the year on, you know, the statewide performance metrics that they have. And I, and I think it's why, unfortunately, we're seeing so many teachers who are burning out in the classroom. Um, Because they're feeling like they're just not able to have that autonomy because a lot of teachers in the same way as writers are very creative people and that's part of what draws them into teaching. You know, you have creative ideas that you want to share with your students. it leads to such burnout. And then my other thought too, as I was reading this book, especially about this carrot and stick, was just, is this why writer's block happens? That we set these expectations for ourselves, or like you said, you had to set a punishment. I mean, that just sounds absolutely horrible. And but so many of us are wanting to think like, oh, okay, this person has the next best fix for us, or this one, and then we set those unrealistic expectations, and then we just become disappointed when in fact it's already within us to meet our, our goals if we allow for ourselves to have the space for creativity. Mm-hmm

Elizabeth: 5:41

Right, and there's a place for these kind of factors like the book highlights that routine work can be outsourced or automated But when you're trying to do something artistic Empathetic or non routine meaning there's not a distinct end point that you are trying to get to then This kind of motivator is actually de motivating like any kind of external motivator um So the intrinsic motivation that we're gonna be talking about is the drive to do something because it is interesting, challenging, or absorbing. And when we talk about being intrinsically motivated, that's when this terminology of flow comes into play. A lot of times, you know, where you lose that sense of, of time, where you're engrossed in the task at hand, where it's sort of this, um, Like you're sort of on the hamster wheel where your action is creating more action and creating more motivation to keep going and you just get to, to be and to play. Um, and so that's what we're gonna be talking about is like the, how do we tap into that and why is it so important, especially in a creative endeavor like writing. We can't use the same sort of tactics of routine work unless you want a routine Outcome and by that I mean the exact same book as someone else without your voice without your style without Any of your own creative input. I mean essentially that's like using ai to write your book That would be an example of of using these sort of routine structured outsourced Automated ways to write and that's that's not going to produce Good creative work

Stephanie: 7:26

Well, and I think it's really important to think about how often. want to fit ourselves into certain structures because we think that that's what's going to make it work for us. And ultimately with this idea of intrinsic motivation, it's about figuring out what works for you. And that can be very challenging because if what works for you, isn't what you're seeing out there on the greater, you know, internet and reels and all those things that are in your face at all times. If you're on social media. You begin to doubt yourself like, Oh, well, maybe my process isn't what's working, but really, it's working for you, then it's working. And if it's getting you to write, and if it's getting you to show up, however it is that you show up. And I mean, we've talked in previous podcast episodes of so many different ways that you can show up. And it's really about figuring out how, what works for you.

Elizabeth: 8:25

You know, I was really surprised too by the research that they've done and the studies that they've done that show that adding an extrinsic reward on top of something you're already motivated to do on top of something that already interests you actually dampens your motivation and your performance. So it's like say you're already motivated to write and you build in, I know I did this, I built in like rewards. like points. So like I said, well, once I get through this round of editing, I'm going to treat myself to a spa day. Once I, you know, get my book to beta readers, I'm going to do this thing for myself as a reward. And what their studies have shown is that when they add some sort of external motivator or reward, um, for just a job, well done on something that you're already motivated to do, it actually kills your motivation. And that was something that was so surprising to me and something I wanted to a be aware of for myself and also share with others because I think we do want to reward ourselves for a job well done and I had no idea that Mentally what's going on in your mind that that could actually Set you back and keep you from achieving what it is that you're trying to achieve simply because You put an external reward on it

Stephanie: 9:46

Yeah, no, I found that really fascinating too, because I think that culturally there's so much. Around those external rewards, like you've said, I mean, you hear so many people talk about, well, do this and then you get this. And it's the same thing, you know, we know, as parents, you know, there's so many different ways of parenting. And there's often been the, well, if your kids do this, then they should get this. And, and I love. whole notion of surprising someone with a reward, or, you know, maybe as a writer, you have an unexpected recognition and so oh, wow, I had no idea that that was going to happen and, and really, you can almost feel the energy burst, you know, I think in my own brain right now, I feel it's like surge, like, oh, okay, I didn't expect that to happen. And it is that motivating, you know, And it's almost, it makes me think about the whole idea of like life begins at the end of your comfort zone,

Elizabeth: 10:45

Mhm.

Stephanie: 10:46

yourself to that point, that like, then all of a sudden you get this kick of energy and you're like, Oh wow.

Elizabeth: 10:51

Mhm.

Stephanie: 10:52

yeah. And I think, and I think we've seen it too. When we've had days where like, wow, we sat down and wrote, oh my goodness, I wrote a thousand

Elizabeth: 10:58

Mhm.

Stephanie: 10:59

1500 words and, and we didn't even set those goals for ourselves. But when we've reached those, I think there's even more push to keep saying, Oh wow, like I can do this.

Elizabeth: 11:10

Yeah, I was gonna say that's how I felt when we saw our sort of buzz sprout podcast hosting results for the end of 2024. We saw how many episodes, what kind of reach we had. I mean, that was a reward for me, but that was not what we were chasing, right? We weren't doing it for that outcome. We were simply showing up and continue to show up because We just love doing the work. Um, the other thought I kept having as I was reading about these like external factors and how they are so detrimental to like turning what would have been play into work is also this idea of like, side hustles in our culture nowadays about how you have to turn every sort of interest or whatever like, oh, well, why don't you sell it for money? Why don't you, you know, like, why don't you do that? That become a side business. Well, you know, if you like to crochet, turn that into a thing. If you like to write, turn that into a thing. And just this kind of caution of like, not everything has to be a thing.

Stephanie: 12:09

Okay.

Elizabeth: 12:25

I turned it into a job, something I was doing as a trade off for money that like I would not enjoy it. I still did it in college as a, you know, I volunteered and I signed up to work shows and it stayed fun and it's still something I love, but I just knew that it would diminish my enjoyment of it if I had to do it.

Stephanie: 12:47

Oh, absolutely. I think that's so true. And I, and I can think of several people I know who, you know, turn something that they loved at that was a hobby, you know, where it was baking or, uh, you know, their music or something of that nature. And I It just led to really quick burnout. And, and I think, you know, as writers, we, of course, we want to make money. We want to sell our books. but that really is not the overarching purpose of why we're sitting down to write. And I think that that's the key point to distinguish here

Elizabeth: 13:23

Yes.

Stephanie: 13:24

writers, we are showing up because our purpose is bigger than, Oh, I want to go be a New York times bestselling author.

Elizabeth: 13:31

Mm hmm.

Stephanie: 13:31

an amazing goal. And if that's your goal, awesome, that's not the driving force for everyone who shows up to write. And I

Elizabeth: 13:39

Mm hmm. Mm

Stephanie: 13:41

that, that, you know, some of, some people are hobby writers and they're, they're doing it for fun. Others, it is their main source of income. they've learned how to make it that way for themselves. And they're still showing up because there's the greater purpose of loving it.

Elizabeth: 14:02

hmm. I love this part in the book and it was talking about Um, painters and sculptors who were intrinsically motivated, those for whom the joy of discovery and the challenge of creation were their own rewards. Were able to weather the tough times and the lack of recognition that an inevitably accompany artistic career careers And I definitely see that like when the reward is the fact that you got those 1500 words down When the reward itself is just completion of your edits or completion of a chapter Or getting your book into those first readers hands then that's what's going to help you weather the times where you're not getting any sort of external feedback. When you feel like you're just in a room by yourself, how are you going to keep going if you're not getting all those external pieces? Well, it's comes from that intrinsic motivation. And the book even says like, it's not that setting goals are bad, but the goal should be revolving around attaining mastery, not about receiving a particular like accolade. Even the New York times bestseller, like Is it really that you want the, that accolade or is it a deeper, like you just want to have reached that level where your readers are so appreciative of the work that you've put out, that it's reaching a wide audience because of the quality that you've put out. I think if most people are honest with themselves, it's less about the actual title and it's more about just what that means about what level of mastery you've reached. And so maybe then if you reframe your goal, it's less about Whether you appear on a particular list and more about what kind of feedback you're getting from your readers and How your book sales are going and just things like that

Stephanie: 15:48

Well, and I think, too, I mean, one of the pieces in the book is about so much around mastery as a mindset and that it's about. Creating and building those beliefs in ourselves based on our experiences and encouraging and that, okay, I did this, oh, wow, how did that make me feel and how it changes your perspective about yourself, whereas I think with the extrinsic piece, if you're constantly trying to meet certain goals, and you're not meeting those, your belief system Is, and your mindset is not going to be in the right place to encourage the creativity that comes with motivation.

Elizabeth: 16:34

Yeah, take NaNoWriMo as an example Like you could have two different writers coming into that with two different intentions, right? One may be saying like they're just totally focused on am I going to get 50, 000 words down? And then maybe hard on themselves if they don't reach that goal. Whereas another writer's coming in You And just knowing that doing that level of intensive writing is going to take them out of their comfort zone and allow them to, you know, improve their writing in ways that they hadn't before, especially with the intensity of the writing, um, and the repetitive habit of showing up. And those two writers could get a totally different takeaway from having completed that challenge. One may view that as, oh, I'm improving my skills and I'm gaining in mastery, no matter how many of these 50, 000 words I get down, whether I achieve this. You know extrinsic metric or not Whereas another writer may feel like may look at their accomplishment of getting you know 40, 000 words down and feel like they didn't achieve what they meant to achieve without being able to Have that perspective that you've you've gained some mastery You've gained some skills in the process and that's really what the focus should be on Yeah

Stephanie: 17:52

goals component, where, you know, when we're constantly setting performance goals, just can diminish the interest in showing up every day. Whereas if you're saying like, wow, you know, I'm learning something new every day about myself, about my writing, about how I'm showing up, you know, you're sort of more motivated. You're like, Oh yeah, like I can do this. I can get in my chair and I can, know, do this at 6am or I can do this at 6pm or whatever time it works, as opposed to saying, Oh my gosh, I didn't get my 500 words today. Okay. And then you start feeling down about yourself. And I know for me that when I set those goals for myself and I don't meet them, I start to get kind of cranky and I start to get kind of snappy. And then I realized like, wait a minute, this is not. Okay. You know, I need to shift how I'm showing up because it's not fair to the people in the world around me because they don't know why I'm being maybe a little bit cranky, you know, that I'm really sort of picking on myself internally. And that's where that mindset of like, no, look at what you did accomplish today. Like, wow. Like, you know, when people talk about like keeping a gratitude journal and how that can help you shift your mindset, I think that that's a of this too is sitting down and reminding yourself, like, look at what you achieved today. You know, did you read more of a book you wanted to read? Did you write more words? Did you do some more research? Did you have a conversation with someone that's going to move your manuscript forward? I mean, I was thinking yesterday I went skiing and it was in the middle of the day and my husband's like, Hey, you want to go ski with a naturalist? You know, cause it was a program that was offered for free. I was like, I don't know if I really want to go, but then I was like, okay, why not, you know, and so we went and I realized like, oh my goodness, this just added a whole new component to my own manuscript related to the ski industry and wildlife habitat that

Elizabeth: 19:47

Oh,

Stephanie: 19:48

expect to have happen. you know, those are things that I'm like, okay, like, yeah, I was doing something with my family and it was taking me away from sitting down at my desk. But guess what? Like I took a leap into something that felt a little bit intimidating because I'm not a big fan of skiing in groups of people, but I was like, okay. And then it was, it ended up being a worthwhile experience.

Elizabeth: 20:11

I love that. I want to share a little bit about flow that he mentions in the book that the highest, most satisfying experiences are when people are in flow. And what he kind of defines as those aspects of how to get into flow is when the goals are clear, the feedback is immediate, AKA you're seeing those words added to the screen. Um, the challenge isn't too easy. It's a notch or two beyond your current ability Such that effort is part of the reward and you can be proud of yourself for having put in and pushed yourself a little bit if you think about like doing a workout like that's this is a very common like concept in doing a workout like Where you do one more rep or one more set or one more thing, you know Push yourself a little bit more distance or go a little bit faster. Just something beyond your current ability Um focus and satisfaction are achieved You have a deep connection to the current moment where you're in full control. Um, and another example is like when you're going hiking and you can see the top of the mountain, you can see the path, you can see where you have to go and what you have to do. And you can also look back behind you and see the progress that you're making along the way.

Stephanie: 21:19

Silence.

Elizabeth: 21:35

you can, you can be in that flow state.

Stephanie: 21:38

Well, and I think, too, I mean, in thinking about the hiking piece, too, is that maybe if you don't reach the peak of the mountain, you can still see that you've made progress.

Elizabeth: 21:49

Yeah.

Stephanie: 21:49

like you said, it's that piece of, you know, maybe the first time you try, you know, you get a little bit further and then the next time you get a little bit further. that's one of the things that, of course, right now at this time of year, the book Atomic Habits by James Clear

Elizabeth: 22:04

Mm.

Stephanie: 22:05

popular because it's a time where, you know, it's the new year, everybody starts setting goals and taking on new things for the year. And he talks about that in there, you know, about the habit setting that, you know, with the gym. So just show up at the parking lot. That can be your first step. Then maybe you step inside and you're watching what people are doing. And it's the same idea with writing. It's like, okay, you know, what is the next step that you can take for yourself? That's going to give you that boost without having anything Any external reward around you that's going to give you that sense of joy that's going to remind you of the purpose that's going to remind you why you're showing up every day, especially, you know, when you think about who your readers are. I mean, I know, you know, I've Shifted around with my manuscript so much and I finally landed with YA Romance and, and really, I mean, there's so many reasons why, but one of them recently has been that when I've gone into bookstores and I've gone into the I just notice how dark it is. There's not a lot of just, Good you know, there's sort of this darkness around, you know, the sort of the science fiction or mystery and thriller and sci fi, just all of these pieces. And I think, you know, I want to contribute to where there are books that for the kids who do want to read a good, you know, feel good story and go on with, with their day. Yeah.

Elizabeth: 23:45

struggle with purpose in their writing, and if they do, it usually weeds them out pretty early on because writing is so difficult that if you don't have a purpose bigger than yourself, if you don't have your reader in mind, I mean, I've talked plenty of times before about how I got to kind of a stopping point after I did my original version of my manuscript. Um, how I wasn't sure if I was going to continue to pursue it because that part I had done for me, right? But when I started to think about who could benefit from it, like that's what motivates me to keep going. That's my bigger purpose. So I don't think many writers really struggle with that, that purpose sort of outside of themselves or if they do it weeds them out early. But it's this mastery piece that I just kept being reminded of because we've talked about how mastery is a mindset. But the book also talks about two other laws of mastery and that is that mastery is a pain And that also mastery is an asymptote or if that that word sounds familiar But you don't remember from from math class back in high school That's that curve that slowly approaches a value but never actually reaches it and that's what so many of these Um, authors that have been around for a long time talk about, that's what I've seen Liz Gilbert talk about. That's what I've seen all of these big people talk about is you're always kind of approaching mastery, but you're never going to actually get there, but it's your push to continue to improve, to continue to get joy from the ways in which you are improving. And what makes mastery so attractive is that It's elusive, and that's what keeps us going a lot of times. Um, and then of course that other piece I mentioned that the mastery is pain. If it didn't hurt, if it wasn't hard, then more people would be doing it, you know? Um, they said,

Stephanie: 25:39

so true.

Elizabeth: 25:40

they referenced in the book, you know, the, to the military cadets and how this concept of grit was actually the best predictor of whether the cadets would achieve. You know completion of their academy or whatever it was And they define grit as a perseverance and passion for long term goals And I mean, that's something that you only really develop with time that that What is not a longer term goal than writing a full length novel, you know, it is a long haul and granted there are some people who have You know perfected their process and they can do it within their you know, two months or whatever They've gotten there because they're further along on this mastery journey than you or I are, but most people, especially those of us starting out writing our first book, it is a long journey. Stephanie, you can speak to this with your first published work.

Stephanie: 26:33

Well, absolutely. I mean, it took me about four years to, you know, work through with, with my first book that I published. And of course, now I'm, you know, walking into year two on my latest manuscript. I mean, grit has definitely, there's a lot of research out there, um, around how that is possible. been a really great predictor of success for a lot of people. Um, and somebody who's written a lot about that is Angela Duckworth. And she also has a YouTube, I think a TED talk around it. Um, and I think that they've shown how. It's one of those components that they look for in people, especially in the workplace, even nowadays for like, you know, how much are they going to stick with something and, you know, get through the muck and the mud to get to the other side. it's, been a huge component of performance review, in a different way, because it is that piece of who is willing to work through all the different levels to get. And like you said, you're not quite going to get to mastery, but you're pushing yourself to that place. And you're constantly challenging yourself. And again, it's that It creates that drive, like hence the title of the book, like there is this piece inside of you, this energy boost that you will feel that aligns all of these pieces that we're talking about, the flow, the, you know, the mindset, the, uh, you know, you're working through the pain. You don't care, you know, how much you have to like wade through to get there. You are going to get there no matter what, because this is what you're meant to do.

Elizabeth: 28:20

Exactly. That really goes well into this part I wanted to emphasize from the book that mastery often involves working and working and showing little improvement. perhaps with a few moments of flow pulling you along, then making a little progress and then working and working on that new, slightly higher plateau again. Um, and that's what it looks like. You know, that's certainly what my writing has looked like. I, I write a bit and then I develop some new skill and then I incorporate that new skill into the way I'm continuing to write or how I edit. And then that time with the work produces a new skill. And then I utilize that and it's, it's all like building blocks. And so if, if you are someone who is struggling to find motivation for one, remove those external motivators, remove the rewards, remove the punishments, and then look at these three aspects of intrinsic motivation. Look at autonomy, ask yourself, do you have control over the task? over your time, over the technique, or over your team. Those are the four T's of autonomy. Um, so are you forcing yourself to write the very next chapter where you should be giving yourself a little bit more leeway because the task at hand is not something that you are particularly into and you need to lean into that motivation of the autonomy of choosing what task is best suited for your current, um, mental space or mood. Are you really structured in your time? But it would, you would be better served to have a different time or a different length of time or Are you following a writing program where the technique is super rigid and you're not allowed to use your own style or your own voice? Um, And then look at purpose. Do you have a bigger purpose than yourself? Are you motivated by, you know, something bigger than you? Whether that's because you believe in the core message of your fictional work or your memoir or, you know, who is this for? What do you change? Do you hope to bring into the world? And then also recognizing that this is something where you're trying to develop mastery and it's a long game.

Stephanie: 30:38

Silence.

Elizabeth: 30:43

frankly, you will never have it figured out. And thank God, you know, cause then everyone would be doing it. Um, so if you're struggling in any of those ways, like do a little self check, see if any of that is, you know, points you to where you might be hanging up on things and maybe it'll create a little bit more space to fall into those moments of flow that are so invigorating and so rewarding. Um, And yeah, check out this book if you have any sort of questions. There's resources towards the back of the book that show how to implement some of this. Um, and I, I think this has been really good for me because I've been really hard on myself about not achieving my goals, quote unquote, that I set for myself. I've been hesitant to make new goals and this book helped validate why I was feeling hesitant and why that's probably okay that I don't have a super structured goal with. you know, associated reward, um, and that I'm just going to continue to keep showing up because I know that I am gaining skills. I am getting closer to mastery, although I know I'll never get there. I can see the ways in which my writing's improved. I've seen the ways in which I've improved from a like personal development standpoint. Certainly we can take an approach and see how we've improved as podcasters over the course of the last year. And I can extrapolate that success in those endeavors and that consistency to my writing as well. Stephanie, what were some of your personal takeaways?

Stephanie: 32:18

Well, I think very similar to yours, just piece of giving myself some grace around the writing process and and realizing that It is a marathon and not a sprint and that it's going to take time and that also I really appreciated the perspective in the book around removing all of these external pressures. And it's been really helpful, especially with the new year and following things on social media where people are like, do this or set this or make a list here and do this. And I'm thinking, I don't have to do any of that because. I just have to do what works for me and I don't have to do what works for everybody else out there and I don't need somebody out there telling me how to do what I do because I know what works for me. what I do, I do it well, in the same way that you, your writing is amazing as well. And I think that that's the piece that I've really come to, you know, if we want to say like entering this new year, you know, this new you, or whatever it might be, is, you know what, I'm okay with where I am. And that in and of itself is an empowering feeling and listener. I hope that you take from today's podcast, you know, whatever little nuggets will help you get closer to your writing goals and your writing dreams.

Elizabeth: 33:51

I love that, Stephanie. I think that's such a great takeaway. It's all gonna happen in due time. I sat on my author website domain name for over a year, and just yesterday I finally was motivated intrinsically, not because I set the goal, not because someone told me I had to, but I just got that push internally to finally sit down and see about starting to build the website. I fleshed out the whole thing, you know, I'm just adding some final details to make sure all the buttons work at this point But I feel so good about it. And so i'm getting that kind of feedback of The reward in having the website completed Plus I can also see how I was not ready to put those words to a page commit those words to a website Without going through this whole last year of like who am I as a writer? What am I offering? You What, what do people want to hear from me? And it's only with that knowledge and that experience I've gained through my different trials and things I've tried that I even can sit down with any sort of confidence and know that I have something I want to share and here's what I want to share. So I say that to say that there is a time and a place for probably all of that advice that we hear. And that's okay if it's not right this second.

stephanie_2_01-04-2025_124803: 35:11

Uh, well listener, we hope that you've enjoyed this episode and we're so excited for you to join us on another season, another year of the Inspired Writer Collective Podcast. Send us an email, hello at inspiredwritercollective. com. Connect with us on social media and we hope you continue listening.