Episode 61: [BOOK CLUB] What We Learned From Reading "First Lie Wins" by Ashley Elston

Have you ever wondered what it takes to craft a story that keeps readers turning pages late into the night? 

You don't want to miss this week's podcast episode featuring our discussion of First Lie Wins by Ashley Elston—a masterclass in suspense and character development. 

It's a book that was optioned for the screen before it was published, it's a Reese's Book Club pick, but those aren't the reasons why we picked it. 

Stephanie had gone "down the rabbit hole" of reading books with the word lie in the title, and this book struck her the most because of the author's craft. 

In this episode you'll hear us talk about the following and more:

• how the author strategically includes backstory 
• the use of tension to keep you turning the page
• examining the author's use of first person narrative

Also, get the Read Like a Writer Workbook PDF here.

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If you prefer video versions of the podcast or want to leave a comment on this specific episode, you can find all of them on our YouTube channel.

We hope you've found guidance and inspiration for your own writing.

Here are two resources for you:

Get your list of 4 Essential Reads for Memoir Writers

Get your Character Coffee Chat Guide for Character Development

Transcript

Elizabeth: 0:01

Welcome back listeners to the Inspired Writer Collective podcast. We are your co-host, Elizabeth and Stephanie, and today we are back for another book club book. So in order to kick this off, I wanted to share, a Apple podcast review we had gotten about a previous book club book episode. Now guys, this is a one star review, but that's okay. We're open to always hearing the feedback. This is from Andy. He said, having just finished reading Demon Copperhead and being a writer myself and having had challenges with the book, I particularly sought this out for support and guidance. It was pretty disappointing to learn that neither podcaster had read more than 5% of the book and still decided to spend time talking about it, which unfortunately led to quite a bit of speculation and missing the point on what many of the challenges were in trying to navigate the book. Just sharing the feedback because it definitely left a bad first impression as an entry point to the podcast. So thank you Andy, for your feedback. It's so interesting because as Stephanie and I reflected back on, on that, you know, input and trying to mine it for what may be helpful, you know, it's funny'cause we titled that particular episode. Why we couldn't finish reading Die Ring Copperhead. And I think we were pretty upfront about how much we had read of it. And in my understanding or my thought process, you and I talked about this a lot, is we put a lot of research into the actual Pulitzer Prize wedding process. And a lot of this backstory, we like to bring that to these episodes. So today with our book, we do have a lot of like author backstory information as well. Hey, we finished reading all the other book club books, so you know, I think we're doing pretty good, but I understand certain episodes are not everyone's cup of tea, and I hope that if you find a episode and you're introduced to us and it's not your favorite thing, maybe try a different episode.

Stephanie: 2:08

Well, and I think what's so interesting about the one Star review is that that episode is by far our most downloaded episode of any episode we've done. so I just had to. Chuckled just a little bit to think like, okay, well, I mean, clearly this person listened to the whole episode. They took the time to leave a review, which we appreciate.

Elizabeth: 2:36

Absolutely.

Stephanie: 2:37

review is still a review, and we know as writers that, you know, gonna leave a review across the spectrum of the stars, and we have other reviews that we appreciate. And so, you know, we encourage you to leave a review and it's okay if it's one star. Like we appreciate the feedback. Great. We understand, interestingly enough, and I don't have it right in front of me at the moment, but if you go to our YouTube channel for that particular episode. There's a review from someone who agrees with us wholeheartedly, that it was really tough to get through. So, you know, everybody has their perspective. And just like with any book, you're not gonna like every book you pick up, but you have to find the ones that work for you. So there you have it.

Elizabeth: 3:22

Well, I'm grateful that, you know, even though he left the one star review, he gave us an actual context for his review versus just clicking a star, with our podcast, we are seeking more reviews. We would love to have your reviews and we wanna start featuring those at the top of every episode. So that's what we're doing today. That's why we brought that up because this is another book club episode. And. Along with the book club readings for those who have been with us for a while, especially back at that demon copperhead. First one I created, and Stephanie I helped, helped me create this workbook. This read like a writer workbook. Now this is I think, 12 pages. A very pointed questions to help you as a writer glean. Insights, techniques, inspiration from the books that you're reading. So we're particularly gonna focus on the questions today around tension, conflict, and character development. Also resolution because we have chosen a thriller. But this workbook is available to you. We, we will have a link in the show description. Just throw in your email address. You'll get access to this PDF that you can print out and use for all of your books. This is a huge tool for being able to. Take what you're seeing in other people's work, even borrowing from different genres than your own in order to really enhance your own writing. So this is one of our, you know, value added products to you, free for you. Just something that we wanna do to encourage you to read more, encourage you to apply that information to your own writing, as Stephanie and I have both talked about how impactful that's been for each of us as writers.

Stephanie: 5:08

Absolutely one of the things that's interesting to me is, you know, having it as a guide when I'm reading outside of genres that I'm writing in. Because one thing we know as writers is how much we can learn from other writers, even if they're not within our genre. And that's one of the other pieces today with this book that we've picked a thriller. So we're excited to share with you some of what we've taken away as writers and encourage you to look at books in a different way.

Elizabeth: 5:41

Yeah. So without further ado, this month's book was First Lie Wins by Ashley Elston. This is an adult thriller, and before it was even published, before it ever came out in print, it was already optioned for a show. So Octavia Spencer picked it up working with. A famous showrunner. So ultimately you'll see it on probably one of the streaming platforms in a show format, like a limited series. This book was also selected as a Reese's Book Club book. I found, an interview that the author Ashley Elston had done with Deadline and previously she had written strictly in the ya age category. She has a couple of thrillers, but her most recent YA books were two rom-coms. So she's written in all sorts of different genres and categories. When I was looking though at the books that she wrote previously to kind of see what her experience writing experience was coming into this book, she actually has a book called The Rules for Disappearing. Where it's a teen protagonist, a young girl who's in witness protection and has fought, had six different identities. So this concept of this multiple identities, and wrestling with that, she's already explored in a previous book, which I think is super interesting'cause you can see the way she probably got to play with that and build on that for this book. Also she had another book called, this is Our Story and it features a small town murder. It seems like a lot of her settings are in small towns, which we also see in this book. Um, and then there's also a female protagonist in that one. And then a third one I looked at, it was also set in the south in Louisiana. And so I quickly looked at the author's background. Lo and behold, she's from Louisiana. Right? Because as writers we write what we know there. There's a lot of like kind of personal experience that comes into our writing. So that was just some really interesting background. I thought about the author's writing experience, and one of the reasons I dug into that is because she has a particular quote that struck me in this interview that I sent to Stephanie as like soon after we had picked this book. And Ashley Elston says, I'm glad that this was my seventh book and not my first book, and I'm glad I was 50, not 25, because I've had books that came out with little fanfare. I. When you have a book that does well as this one has done, it's even sweeter because you've seen the other side of that. So you have such an appreciation for when it is good at 25, I think my head would be spinning a little bit more than it is already is, but I'm 50, I'm married. It's life changing. But also I still decide what I'm having for dinner tomorrow and getting my youngest to cross country practice, and that laundry is not gonna do itself. I think I'm grounded. Grounded in a way because of where I am in my life, to where I'm taking it in and I'm enjoying it, but I'm trying not to let it overwhelm me, and that just really stood out to me because it does such a good job of speaking to you. You know, so many writers want that first book to hit, right? They really are hard on themselves when they don't have. You know, selling at a certain metric that they set for themselves. But what I feel like this author is reflecting on in that statement is that she wasn't ready for that then it would've had a totally different impact. And she's actually expressing gratitude that this is her seventh book. And, and like as I looked at, you know, those previous books that she published, you can see the kind of threads of how she's probably. Built on her skills. Yes, she has written Thriller before for a YA audience, you know? Yes. She's written rom-com before for a YA audience. And here with first Lie wins, we get a, an amazing thriller with multiple identities and a little bit of romance thrown in. So you can see how she has blended so much of that writing experience to then have this book that is. Hit the bestseller lists.

Stephanie: 10:01

Yeah. I really love that quote too, because like you said, it just speaks to that aspect of seeing the development and I think about in my own writing practice and how I. I'm working on this first novel and I'm tripping up, tripping myself up a few times, but really what I have to think about is I just have to get it out the door and then keep going because it really is a process of building upon the work that's come before. Because really when you look at so many things in the world, you know, with social media and everything, so often everything looks like, oh, that they just did that overnight and really. The majority of things are rarely an overnight. Success and just, you know, hearing the author's appreciation for that and recognizing, you know, where she is in her life. and also a reminder to so many of us who are coming to being a writer later in life, um, that maybe we planned or, you know, it's always been there our whole life, but we're just grasping onto it now. Um, there's a certain amount of comfort. I mean, she is. a lot of fanfare from from this, but rightfully so, because really if you haven't read it to me, it's a phenomenal thriller. And I mean, I've read a lot of thriller in the past. It, you know, it was a genre I hadn't picked up in a while. But this is definitely a page turner.

Elizabeth: 11:33

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 11:34

so many aspects that we're gonna talk about throughout this episode about how it impacted us as writers and. What we learned and know why we hope you'll also, you know, join us on our book Club Journeys each month.

Elizabeth: 11:49

Right. And I think what's so beautiful about that too is like. We, we talk a lot as writers. You hear a lot about how your various drafts are those stepping stones, but I really appreciate that she highlights that even previously published books are also your stepping stones, and we've talked a little bit before we've referenced, you know, how important that back list is, right? So it's okay that maybe those were released without much fanfare as she says, because people who like her style of writing thriller. May still turn to her previous ya a thrillers, right? So it doesn't matter that she didn't capture that audience at the point of that book release because they're all out there and people can find her and find all of that back list, right? Um, and so I think it's just really helpful and a great example in seeing that. Like, just because your first book doesn't make it quote unquote, or your second, or your third, or your fourth or your fifth, there is still an audience out there for you and maybe it takes switching in and out of genres. Maybe it takes writing for a different audience. You know, she switched from writing from for the YA audience to suddenly this is her first adult book. Um, so maybe that's where her voice now as a writer resonates most strongly. And she referenced in the interview that her next book is also gonna be another adult thriller. Um, so it's just a great reminder that, you know, you don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed into whatever genre you first release in, or particular, like whether you're writing for middle grades or ya or adult, you know, there's so much room to flex your writing muscle and find your space, and none of that means that any of that early work is wasted. So Stephanie, why don't you give us a little bit of the premise of our book this month? First live wins.

Stephanie: 13:49

All right. So, first lie wins, features a main character, that we meet, Evie. we learn at the beginning that there's something that she's not sharing with, with us as the reader. She goes through this journey of, connecting with this guy Ryan, very early in the story, and it takes you through her navigating several identities to figure out who it is that she's working for. And what the secrets are that are hidden behind who Ryan is she's been put to the task. We learn, you know, to be, to have connected with him. There's a purpose behind that,

Elizabeth: 14:43

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 14:44

As you're reading, you're just continuously curious about like, well, who is she and who is he? And through the process they're falling in love with each other and, but then you're not really sure. Is that for real? And so it's so interesting how many twists and turns this takes in terms of other people she connects with and how they fit into this story and how she's ultimately working to get out of the situation that she's in but isn't sure how to do it. And yeah, it just takes you on this journey of, and I love this idea of the title. You know, first Lie Wins, this whole idea of, you know. She's gonna say something that's not fully the truth and see if it carries weight in her conversation with whoever she's talking to and see if it holds. And you know, I was sharing before we pressed record about how I had found this book because I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole of picking books with titles with the word lie in it. Um, especially'cause I was all of a sudden into the thriller sort of psychological thriller draw, you know, category. And I was like, huh, there, there's several books that have that in the title. I'm curious. And so I read several different books and this was the one that just stood out as being, you know, really phenomenal, which is why I suggested it, not only for the story, but just for the other aspects of it that we can learn from his writers. But it's, yeah, this book takes you on a journey and just when you think you have it figured out, you'll be surprised.

Elizabeth: 16:22

Yeah. What I found to be so surprising about this book is while I'm used to there being, you know, twists and things throughout a thriller. Holy cow. This author keeps the twist going to the very end. Just when you think you understand what's going on, there's a whole nother spin on it. And I mean, it's definitely one of those books where it's like, it pushes you to almost wanna read it twice, right. To like. Read it for the ride the first time, and then to read it again for, with that, like all knowing, omniscient, understanding of where it's going to really appreciate. I mean, just the, the, the slow trickle of information that's only given when it's absolutely vital for the reader to understand. So this book is written in, first person, present tense from the perspective of the protagonist and. So we only know what she knows. And even that is really limited because we, as the reader can understand that she, like very early on, we're told things are referenced, that there's been a previously failed mission, and that this mission that she's currently on, that we're dropped into with Ryan is a test. So we know that she's being tested. We don't know exactly what she failed or what her previous experiences, or how she even got into this job. She slowly starts to reveal the process of how she goes to a mailbox. She gets a little bit of information about where she's supposed to go, and then she'll get the next set of information about who she's supposed to target and learn everything about that target, and then she'll get a little bit more information about what she's supposed to acquire from that target. Whether it's information or resources or something like that. And she's working for this sort of, uh, voice modified Mr. Smith, who she's getting these directives from, but she's never met and any kind of communication has always been through this voice modified thing and. She understands that he is being hired by high paying clients that are looking for certain things, whether it's business takeovers or priceless paintings, or a whole myriad of things, right? It could be anything, and she knows that there's a client she's working for, but she doesn't always know even. Who that client is. So there's a lot that even she doesn't know and that we find out with her. But then she also has all of this history, which is slowly told through these kind of vignette facts stories. Um, so this was such a great book, Stephanie, to really explore the concept. Of tension and conflict. Um, and we have some questions in the read, like a writer workbook that specifically focus on tension and conflict, such as, you know, how quickly did the author introduce tension and conflict, and was it internal, was it external or both? And as you summarized. We are dropped right into her, you know, getting her tire fixed by Ryan. But we understand that there's a level of deception there. We understand that she's on this new mission and that she previously faltered and this is a test. And like you said, that she wants to get out of this life, that she's hoping she can just be done with this at some point. So we've got that internal and external conflict from the jump.

Stephanie: 20:17

well, yeah, and one of the things that I noticed in my notes that I had made note of that at the end of the first chapter. There's an immediately. You're drawn into the tension,

Elizabeth: 20:28

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 20:29

between the two of them. And so there is that piece, like you said, the pacing of it with how she gives us, just enough that, you get the sense that like, okay, well, you know, she targeted him, flattened his tire. So that she would, you know, have to have that interaction with him. She knew all this stuff about him'cause she'd been watching him for a little while and there was all this piece and, as she's sharing this, you're getting just little bits.

Elizabeth: 21:02

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 21:03

And I feel like the, the author does a really good job with the first person narrative, with that perspective of we, when we're going through our everyday life, are not noticing every detail. That's around us, and that sometimes things need to happen or somebody else brings an awareness to it through a conversation that makes us stop and pause and think like, oh, and so I appreciate that she didn't do, you know, what some authors are playing with, which is, you know, the head hop, what's called head hopping, where it's one chapter is

Elizabeth: 21:37

Hmm.

Stephanie: 21:37

one chapter is another character, so that you're really it with her.

Elizabeth: 21:42

Yeah.

Stephanie: 21:43

you're in this journey There's that piece of what's gonna come around the next corner, and like you said, the backstory that's woven in where she had taken on other identities, give you the pieces that you need right at that moment in the book to understand, you know, why she's worried about having, you know, encountered somebody else who now all of a sudden has an identity she used to have, or you know, why. Why cer she's reacting to things in certain ways. And so that in and of itself also creates the tension because as the reader, you're like, oh my goodness, is the, is this gonna impact her in some way? Or is it gonna prevent her from, you know, passing this test that she's been thrown into and, you know, is she gonna survive this?

Elizabeth: 22:36

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you know, that really takes us to like the tension management question of like, what techniques did the author use to increase or decrease the tension? You know, were you as the reader aware of things, the main character was not. And we certainly weren't. We were not given as the reader any additional information than what the main character has and. In the way that the backstory is shared, we were even sort of intentionally misdirected at times. So what I really liked about the backstory and providing the vital information, yes, we understand where she's coming from, where, what her thought process is, and also there are certain points where we as the reader start to make these sort of logical assumptions. About where she's going with things. Like she references this party she was at for, I think it was a senator that she was working with, and that was her kind of mark at in that backstory. And then just when you think you have an understanding of it and you've come to the logical assumption, then the author spins it and says, oh, well I didn't tell you this other piece of information, which is. Maybe not the most like obvious, but still plausible and different than what you as the reader thought. And so it really, she, Ashley Elston does a great job of really just turning the story on its head multiple times. Just when you Thank, you have an understanding. I mean, there's there. I don't want to say too much because I don't wanna spoil this beautiful story for people who haven't read it. Maybe if, if at this point you are interested, maybe click off if you haven't read it. But there's some beautiful points where you, you get enough information and you think, you understand how the main character is processing this information, but then you realize that she knows more than you and she's actually, you know, processing it on a deeper level. Like at one point you really questioned Ryan's role in all of this, and oh, is he actually way more involved than we thought? You know? But then you realize later that she has come to a different conclusion than you as the reader because she has more information than you. Um, so it's this beautiful guard of information to really. Um, increase that tension to have those twists and surprises. And for me, as a memoir writer, this was like honestly one of my biggest takeaways because I think in writing memoir, I know I have this tendency, I've seen other people do it too. You want to give someone the backstory so that they understand where you're coming from. But this book did such a good job in demonstrating to me as a writer, I. That you only have to give the reader just enough to understand that moment and it actually makes the story more engaging to maybe question or wonder, oh, why is that? Like, I understand. So for example, in my own memoir, maybe it would be something like referencing, you know, mine and Rachel's relationship fallout. Before I ever give any context as to why I'm worried about that, you know, like referencing some past troubles without immediately jumping into a backstory to tell you where those past troubles are rooted in, right? Saving that backstory until you really need to know, leaving the reader questioning, having some knowledge that, oh, okay, well there's something here, but not giving them all the details in that moment. I think that's what I'll take most from this book in my own writing is that realization that the reader doesn't actually have to know as much as we as the writer think they need to know in that moment.

Stephanie: 26:33

I love that.'cause I mean, that relates so much to, you know, my journeying into writing and fiction right now, having transitioned from nonfiction I too appreciate the slow. of backstory because I find that I, that's one of the things that I fall into when I'm writing is I, I wanna tell the reader everything and, and we have to remember that. Our readers are smart. We don't need to, you know, underestimate their ability to make the inferences or make the leaps and, and all of that. And so it can be really easy to fall into that. And it's so helpful to, you know, read books like this one that remind us that you only need just enough. Because the real key is you need to keep the momentum of. The story moving forward, and that's one of the pieces that I really took away and reminded myself about, you know, keeping up that momentum by giving the reader just enough. Then moving on. And the other piece for me too was I've been wrestling with, do I write in first person? Do I write in third person? And I've tried, I've been trying both and seeing how it, how it lands and, and I keep going back to first person. And this book was a helpful reminder of. And I'm writing in romance, but that taking the character through the journey with just the one first person perspective. I know it's really common right now in romance where, you know, authors are head hopping, but that doesn't interest me as much as this progression of showing the character development across the journey, and creating that character arc. And, and that's what we really see with. You know, the, the main character here, Evie Porter and how she, you learn stuff about her, you get more depth when you're thrown into some of the backstory where you're like, whoa, look at what she's been through. Like that explains, you know, why she has, this strength or this reaction or this blind spot where she's not seeing something. so I appreciated that too, um, with the way the author really creates that development for her where you see her really take hold of like, this is not the life I want anymore,

Elizabeth: 28:52

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 28:53

and create that transformation.

Elizabeth: 28:56

Well, and you, it really emphasizes how secretive and private she is too, in the fact that we as the reader are not even privy to so much of the information about her, right? It's like we as the reader are just another person in the room. Slowly, you know, getting to know this elusive character who really keeps her cards, close to the chest, right? Yes, I definitely felt that it really added to the character development and really being able to see and understand how she became who she was. But also the main storyline is like. Present day. And we get to even see her evolve within that storyline. Not just because we're getting information and understanding about our past, but also how she evolves both within that like romantic dynamic or her understanding of her role and whether she wants this kind of work anymore. Her. Strong desire to want to be able to trust people, but that fear that she can't let her guard down, like all of that is also happening in sort of present time in this active, role that she's playing as Evie Porter. And that's really cool to see kind of unravel or untangle as well.

Stephanie: 30:27

Well, and one of the things that comes to mind for me is so often, you know, with books. Uh, you know, you wanna think about like, what's gonna hook a reader in, in terms of the, you know, the overall kind of concept of a book or when you're writing. Sometimes it's helpful to have like, well, what's the bigger picture? And in this book there's really, like you said, that piece about trusting and it's kind of like, how far will someone go? To hide their secrets or to keep their secrets hidden. And so, you know, if that's the kind of story, you know, you like and you think like, ooh, like what, what will people do? And it's such an interesting look into that dynamic as well in terms of that building of the trust or you know, and, and of course, you know, as the title first lie wins. And then so then, so then in a way there's also that piece of like. Well, who's like, are there truths in here? Or is this another lie that's that's gonna help you know her, achieve her goal, or Ryan achieve what he needs? And then, you know, so there are these layers that start to build up in the book. Where you're, you're trying to separate out like, where's the truth and where's the lie? And it's so, it's so interesting. I mean, it

Elizabeth: 31:40

Okay.

Stephanie: 31:41

really is this puzzle. And that's what I loved about it so much too as I was reading, was just trying to put together the pieces of the puzzle where I was like, wait a minute, but I thought this, oh wait, what's okay, this came out of left field. You know, all of those pieces, which I think really make it such a masterful, uh, piece of writing as a thriller.

Elizabeth: 32:01

I mean, it was so artful and it really made me question whether the author, you know, heavily plotted this from, you know, from the jump before writing it in order to release all those micro details or. If this is more of a style where you kind of write and then you retrofit what you need, I mean, either way. I was just sort of fascinated with trying to understand how she pieced this all together because it is so seamless and she's planting nuggets. Say like in the backstory, that don't seem to have much relevance until all of a sudden they do. But she's given you that information. It's there, but you don't get to understand its significance until she's ready for you to, which it's so impressive from like a writing standpoint. And so I'm definitely curious about how the writer, the author. Like what? What her methodology was for even like crafting the story. Do you think if you were writing something like this you would need it like fully outlined or do you think that there's some of it that you just would only know in retrospect once you knew where it was gonna end, be able to plant those kind of Easter eggs along the way?

Stephanie: 33:22

Well, I know, I mean, from listening to, uh, interviews with another thriller author, I've heard speak that, you know, she likes to plot everything out and have it all laid out. But, but I don't know. I feel like the process can be so individual from author to author. I mean, we talk all the time about, you know, how our process evolves and changes and, you know, I play with things where. Some days I'm like going back to my plot table and going, okay, this is where I need to go next. And other days I decide like, oh, well this scene has struck me, so I'm gonna write that way. I almost feel like with the way a thriller moves, that you would have to plot it out so you would know where you would have the twists and turns. But then, I don't know. With her having. Written a similar style book before, maybe there was something similar to the way this was structured. So it was playing with a structure she was already familiar with. but it is so interesting to think about, you know, like, well, what did she do to know that this was where this backstory needed to be?

Elizabeth: 34:31

Yeah, I mean, even the way the different characters in the present day story come to play, like I'm thinking in particular like. Rachel's character who is a lawyer and a friend of Ryan's that she meets, like the maybe, maybe Ashley Elon is just a fricking genius and she can just outline this from the jump and know exactly what needs to happen based off of her experience with her previous novels. But to me it just seems like, how can anyone have that level of foresight? And how, how much of this is it? Like, okay, well I now I need to have this character do this. How am I gonna save her? Oh, I can put this character in and they can have this kind of dynamic leading up to here. Oh, and if I plant this back here, that's gonna solve this problem. You know, down the line. Like to me, I just get the impression that I would not be able to do it from just a, in my head, straight outline like that. I would have to. Uh, even though I'm, I tend to be more of a plotter that I would have to just kind of write it and then when I ran into problems, then add something, you know, to a previous moment to then fix the, the future problem that I've created for myself. But that's just how I, you know, imagine like going through that writing process.

Stephanie: 35:44

Well, that that's how, I mean, that's how it would probably work for me a little bit because I'm running into that even right now is I'm in a space where I'm just moving forward,

Elizabeth: 35:52

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 35:53

there are pieces that are coming. Up as I'm moving forward where I'm like, oh, I'm gonna need to go back

Elizabeth: 35:58

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 35:59

that piece hasn't been fit. You know, maybe it doesn't fit here, it fits earlier, but I'm gonna just keep moving forward and fit it here. Um, and I feel like there's a complexity with thrillers Are very unique and especially with this particular book because there is so much complexity, but yet she so brilliantly makes it simple, like in just little ways that. Like you said, like we just, you, it's a page turner. You're

Elizabeth: 36:33

Yeah.

Stephanie: 36:33

bogged down in a lot of information because

Elizabeth: 36:36

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 36:36

keep going. Like, where is this going? Where is this going? What is gonna happen next? And so yeah, it's really an interesting read and so listener definitely pick it up if you haven't already.

Elizabeth: 36:47

She has a talent for keeping the reader curious. Without being confused. I never felt confused. I mean, I certainly felt tricked, you know, with some of these twists and everything, but I was never like, where's this going? I always felt like I had a handle on the story and that I understood, you know, kind of the dynamics of what was at play. And so she gave me enough to let me feel secure in the moment, which honestly, I think makes the twist even more profound because I felt like I had an understanding. I wasn't confused at any point. You know, I, I felt like I understood what was going on, and then she would throw a twist. And so I think that certainly takes some skill and some, very careful handling to make sure that. You're not just confusing the reader, right? Like that the reader feels like they understand what's what's going on. The other thing too, with both the way that Elston controls the tension and the release of the backstory, but also that first person present tense narrative from Evie's perspective is that it really. Encourages you as the reader. You can't help but root for this main character, even though you know she's up to no good. She's got a shady past. You're slowly learning that she is tricked people. She's done some bad things, some questionable morals, you know, and, but you can't help but like, like root for her, either against the, a bigger evil or that you have some like. Empathy for the fact that she just has to like live her life on the go and she's not allowed to get close to anyone. I think that all of that really adds to your attachment to this main character.

Stephanie: 38:36

Oh, absolutely. I think, uh, Elston very, uh, effectively makes you just. Almost put yourself in the shoes of the main character because you do like her a lot and sometimes that isn't always the case. Um, there was another book I read that, you know, that was similar, um, that I was like, uh, this character is not. Really drawing me in. And again, um, you know, Evie's journey and you're like, oh, what does she do? Oh, okay. Like, you know, why is she doing that? And just sort of, you know, and certainly in situations where I don't think I would ever find myself, I certainly, am not living life on the edge. And so just that. Place of putting yourself in another experience is also a really cool aspect of this book. Um, throwing you into different scenarios and then, and sometimes, you know, when I'm thinking about thrillers, I'm thinking like, well, how would, how would I have done that? But then, I don't know, like. That I would've been able to figure that out as well as, uh, Ashley Elston was with this book. Um, you know, I don't know that my brain, enjoy, you know, thrillers and, you know, mysteries and all of those pieces, but I don't know that it would be a genre that I could see myself going into.'cause I don't know that I could come up with the solution the same way that she, you know, so carefully crafts throughout.

Elizabeth: 40:17

Yeah.

Stephanie: 40:17

Book and like the thread, like you said, you know, I mean, I went back to sort of skim parts and look through, but I didn't, you know, read it cover to cover again. But now after we're talking, I'm like, I'm kind of curious now that I know the bigger picture, like what would I pull out going through it a second time? And it's not often that I wanna pick a book up a second time,

Elizabeth: 40:37

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 40:38

one of those that I would.

Elizabeth: 40:39

Yeah. Well, and the other thing that's so interesting that stood out to me is even how the author does the basic scene setting, and she never tells you something about the setting even that is not relevant. Like even her settings come back into play. To the bigger, like thriller thing, for example, she describes like the sparse decor that's in the apartment that Evie's renting. Um, and how she places specific things in it to make it look like it's lived in or make it look like she's partially moved out already. Um, even like the layout of, um. A house where Evie, well, during a previous identity, she goes in and, and steals this painting or the front porch of a house where she goes and confronts a former client. Like even all those details that you think she, the author is painting just to give you a sense of place. No, they have deeper importance that you don't even realize. You just are sitting there absorbing this information, thinking you're just. You know, being set in a place. Okay, yeah. It's this kind of time. There's some rocking chairs here. We've got the couple steps down to the porch, this door, it's all relevant. And that was so impressive to me that even her scene setting what you would think of as just kind of like the fluffy part of the writing or the, just the necessary part to like immerse the reader was all super relevant and would always come back into play.

Stephanie: 42:17

Well, and it's such a good reminder with writing in general, and you spoke to this just even about your memoir, about being very purposeful about the details that you're putting in

Elizabeth: 42:28

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 42:28

remembering. the reader doesn't need every detail to make that leap or make the connection.

Elizabeth: 42:37

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 42:37

I think that, I mean, it comes back for me to, you know, simplifying because I'm very good at overcomplicating things I'm really working on that piece of. Breaking it down into just more manageable pieces. And I think she does that really well. Especially because, I mean, with a thriller, you, you do wanna keep the reader hooked in You don't wanna lose them. And that being very strategic about the details, the dialogue, the, you know. The conver, you know, who the character characters are and why they become, you know, a focal point. Because like you said, you know, the lawyer friend Rachel becomes this point of tension for Evie.

Elizabeth: 43:30

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: 43:30

so, but then ultimately, I. It softens later, you know, so you see these, you know, sort of transformations where she's caught up against something that's creating tension for her, and the author is using that actually as a clue to a point that it's gonna point to some kind of resolution or something that's gonna help her later, but you don't realize it. Of course, as you're going through, you're like, oh, wow, this character's, you know, this person's really pushing back against her, or, you know, creating some problem and you're like, oh, that's just, you know, an annoying friend. But then you realize how it plays in later. And so all of those very simple strategic of adding the details.

Elizabeth: 44:17

Well, you're right, there's a lot to learn and our brains can't hold all of this like detail that we're gleaning from this amazing book, which is why it's so helpful for you to take notes in the read, like a writer workbook. You can print it out for each book you read because. Those kinds of things, like once you are drafting or once you do get to an editing phase with your book, you can look back at these notes that you've taken of these previous books of like, oh yeah, I wanna make sure I'm really being intentional about. The amount of backstory that I'm giving or, oh yeah. I do wanna make sure that when I'm setting the scene, that I'm including just those details that are gonna be relevant or that I'm just even including the necessary details that could add to a deeper understanding of, of this character. Those are all things that are honestly like. Are you gonna remember two weeks from now? I mean, I wouldn't, except I have it written down so that I, I have it as a reference. Like, oh yeah, I really liked how that author did this thing in that one book, and that was something I wanted to see how I might be able to utilize within my own writing. I. So again, listeners, I encourage you, the link is in the show notes to get the PDF, so you have access to that so that you can really make the most from your reading experience. Um, and I I did have one question, Stephanie. How long do you think it would take for someone like Luca to learn about you and your life if you were the mark?

Stephanie: 45:53

Oh my goodness. I, I mean, I think Luca would learn pretty quickly,

Elizabeth: 46:01

Yeah, I felt the same. I was like, oh, I'm such a creature of habit. I'm so consistent. I'm also, I mean, with a podcast, we're very transparent, so they, that someone like that would have no, no issue. Uh, yeah, finding, finding me, learning all sorts of. Facts about me. Luckily, I don't have too many secrets to hide, but those are pretty much all in the memoir, so you know.

Stephanie: 46:32

Yeah, so listener. pick this book up. As you can tell from the length of our discussion, we definitely loved this book. We've learned so much from it that we're gonna take forward. Get the PDF that's in the show notes. Leave us a review if you like this episode or if you know, hop on and check out other episodes. And thank you for joining us and hopefully you'll join us for our next book club.