Episode 92: [Karolina Wudniak] Nonfiction Authors, Meet Your Book Designer for Self-Publishing

Are you ready to find a book designer?

Or, save the name of our guest, Karolina Wudniak, for later.

Karolina works with self-published authors, mostly nonfiction, on the design of their book covers and the interior design of their books.

She absolutely loves working visually which led her to becoming a graphic designer for authors.

Karolina appreciates simple design and brings inspiration from nature to her designs.

She can work on your cover design and the interior of your book.

You'll be really interested to learn Karolina does her due diligence by reading each manuscript to find ideas and understand the vibe.

Karolina's biggest recommendation for self-published authors is to work with a professional editor because she often finds lots of errors.

Meet Karolina:

Karolina is a Book and Layout Designer. She can be found at the crossroads between words and visuals, ready to help turn a manuscript into a book that can fly high. When she's not crafting compelling book covers and layouts, you might find her chasing outdoor adventures in the stunning West Coast mountains with her husband and son or sipping on yet another cup of coffee while reading—fuel for both creativity and life’s explorations.

https://karolinawudniak.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/anglartkarolina/
https://www.instagram.com/karolina.wudniak/

Free resources: https://karolinawudniak.com/book-design-resources/
The Indie Book Lab event calendar: https://lu.ma/indiebooklab?utm_source=isc

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Transcript

Elizabeth Wilson: 1:14

Welcome back listeners to another episode of the Inspired Writer Collective. I'm your host today, Elizabeth, and I'm joined today by Carolina vak. She specializes in nonfiction cover design, and interior formatting. She also helps authors. Work on their marketing and does all sorts of extra cool things. Like if you go on her website, you'll see she's got workbooks. So if you're writing something in nonfiction and the workbook would be a nice complimentary or a journal or something like that, is your person to talk to. So welcome Carolina, and please give our listeners a little bit more background of who you are, how you got into this, and what you have on offer.

Karolina Wudniak: 1:56

Yeah. Hi everyone, and uh, hi Elizabeth. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I'm honored to, to be talking to you. Um, yeah, so a little bit of background about me. I'm originally from Poland, but I live on the west coast of Canada and I absolutely love the ocean and the mountains and everything that's, that it has to offer. And I'm mentioning it because this is like big part of my inspiration process. Um, for all the design things that I do. I spend a lot of time in nature. This like, um, brings me my creativity for the project that I work on. And I work with self-publishing authors on their book covers and the interior design of their books. Mostly nonfiction, not only, but like this is, this is the area that, um, I thrive the most, I would say. And I got into book design. I wanted to say by coincidence, but I actually think that it was meant to be. Um, I have experience in my past life back in Poland, um, I was working as a journalist and as a writer. And, when I moved to Canada, I knew that I didn't feel as confident as I felt writing in Polish, in English, and I knew I need to switch direction. Um, and I was already, I had a travel block and I was already doing a lot of graphic design for my own mar marketing needs. And I fell in love with, with the visuals as well and with the graphic design. And I was doing like, you know, some. Marketing regular, like whatever project land landed on my, on my desk and at some point I got a gig to create audiobook covers and I just fell in love with it and I think it, why is that? It connected me back to that writing space. Just from different angles, because I always love, I loved writing, I loved, um, books in general, and it kind of, you know, got me back into the book space. Um, but connecting the, the visual piece to it, so I kind of, I feel it's, uh, it's what I'm supposed to be doing on this world. Designing books. Um, yeah, so this, this started in 20, 20 19. And I go on with it until, until now and I hope until you know the rest of my.

Elizabeth Wilson: 4:22

What I love about so many of the book cover designs that you feature on your website as examples of your work is they are so like clean and simple and easy to read. And while there are some, you know, beautiful book designs out there for various. Sub genres of the fiction world, they just don't translate correctly for something like memoir or other nonfiction. But I, or like, especially like self-help and those sort of things, and I just really was drawn to, Yeah. that, that simplicity of getting the intention across, capturing the mood of the book without too much fanfare.

Karolina Wudniak: 5:04

Yeah. thank you for saying this. And if, if this is exactly the inten intention that I have when I design, um, my covers is I love and interiors as well. I love simple design, very clean. Um, so I'm glad that you're saying the same thing that I, that I intend to when I design.'cause you know, which with, with any visual design, any graphic design that we do, it's like your intention as a graphic designer might be very different from what. The receiver of, of the design sees, right? So I'm happy that we're on the same page here. Um, and especially for nonfiction and for self-help books, I kind of feel that the design has to be simple, because you know, it. Especially for self-help books, the ones that kind of goes into spirituality as well, they always have like this calm vibe and like this, there's usually some simple message inside the book, uh, that needs to come across. So I, I just, I cannot really imagine like, you know, very, very colorful, like in. In like very fun cover for, for such kind of books, right?

Elizabeth Wilson: 6:23

What level of information do you get from the author? How far do you dig into a manuscript in order to the content of the book that you're designing? A cover or an interior layout for?

Karolina Wudniak: 6:38

It differs a little bit between the cover and the interior because like for the interior, I have to do, I would say I have to do more research on, on the genre, on, uh, what's out there you know, like the, some comparable titles, um, and how, how their cover looks like. And then I do have to dig in into manuscript a lot more whenever I can, whenever I have time for it, I try to read the whole manuscript. Sometimes, you know, with lots of projects in life and everything, that's not really possible to like, you know, read three new manuscripts in a week. Right.

Elizabeth Wilson: 7:16

Mm-hmm.

Karolina Wudniak: 7:17

but I try to like go as much as possible into, into the manuscript because sometimes there's like one small thing in the manuscript that of picks your interest and pops and it's like a great team or like, uh, yeah. Great team for, for recover. So sometimes it's like a small element, right? But it's, it's, it's important for, uh, for the book. So it's nice to have that. And if you just get like a brief from outer or the description of the book. You might not have this like small, tiny thing that will, will be important in the book, um, and will make a great visual for the cover. Right. So it's, I believe it's, it's important to get through the manuscript for the book cover. And when it comes to the interior design, I don't actually have to read the whole manuscript. I need to know what genre it is and like read a little bit of it to kind of get the vibe of the book. And get the feel, you know, like what's, what kind of, um, message and it it conveys and what kind of feelings it evokes. Because that's, that's one of the questions that I ask in, in my intake form, uh, to, to my authors. Like, what kind of feeling do you wanna evoke in a reader when they see or cover or when they open your book? And that, like, that gives a good direction for me in terms of like, you know. Should this be more simplified or cleaner or maybe a little more of some graphic elements that goes in, into the interior that we need to kind of get those feelings, um, evoked in in the readers.

Elizabeth Wilson: 8:53

Yeah, it, it almost seems like there could be a trend where an author is maybe too close to their own work to really be able to. See where these various opportunities are, and you coming in with like sort of a clean slate and you just approaching the manuscript and seeing what you pull from it. Is like a nice, like fresh set of eyes, you know? And so because of that, do you ask for like much of a author's idea ahead of time or do you say, Hey, let me read your manuscript and give you a couple ideas and then we can collaborate? Or what does that look like as far as, you working with the author, if they, you know, and, and generating ideas?

Karolina Wudniak: 9:35

Yeah, no. So my, my process is very collaborative and I always ask for outdoor ideas in the intake form as well. And you know, sometimes, sometimes some authors have like pretty strict vision of what they want on the cover, and so sometimes they're just like, I don't know, you know, like Sky is the limit, right? Whatever you'll offer and, and let's go from there. Um, so it, it really.

Elizabeth Wilson: 10:00

for you?

Karolina Wudniak: 10:02

Um,

Elizabeth Wilson: 10:03

more work?

Karolina Wudniak: 10:05

you know. Depending, when you ask me the answer will be different, right? Because there are some, there are some books that, you know, even from just seeing the title and knowing what the book is about, I already generate like in my head 15 ideas and like, I don't know where to start because there's like too much. And sometimes it's like, you know, I'm sitting and looking at my schedule just to like draw like some simple first ideas that I have. I will come up with like two and then I'm like, that's, you know, I need to get back to it. That's what I got for now. Right. So it depends. And then, but on the other hand, when the, when the outer already have some kind of idea, it kind of, it gets into my head and it's sometimes more difficult to get some other ideas in because I'm kind of like, already, you know, I have that filter of, of already existing idea in my head and it's kind of. Sometimes it's, it's a little hard to get past that and kind of delete it from, uh, from my head and get new fresh ideas. Um, so that's a process. And usually what happens is that. I will, when I'm working on, on the first draft and sketches, it's, I will get back to it. I will put whatever I have in my head, then leave it for a day or two. Then, you know, think about it while on I'm on my run in the forest or, you know, somewhere outside, like outside of my desk and, and the computer

Elizabeth Wilson: 11:34

Yes.

Karolina Wudniak: 11:34

just to kind of get like some other, other ideas just from, from the environment that I'm in. Um, and then I put those in. It's also funny, whatever. I will, it's kind of looks good in my head and I will like sketch the idea so I know what to put Then in, in the design software and quite often like, that's why I need to do a lot of sketches because quite often some of them, like, you know, they kind of, I felt they could look, they, they look good in my head. But when I put it in the design software, it's like, oh no, that's like, absolutely not. It doesn't, it doesn't look good. It doesn't feel good. It's not a good idea, right? So I need to get those bad ideas out from my head as well to kind of get the direction, uh, for the good ones, and which with the collaboration with the author, um, I always get their ideas as well. And that's. And I always, when I'm preparing some drafts there, there always one of them will be with, kind of based on the idea that the author have, and then the other ones will be different so they can also see their own idea. And then what else can we use, uh, for the cover. And I feel that authors should love the cover. And that's especially true for self-publishing authors because, you know, you are not only the author of the book, you are the marketer. Um, and like everything, right? Branding expert of,

Elizabeth Wilson: 12:55

Mm-hmm.

Karolina Wudniak: 12:56

everything that, that happens with the book it's on you. So in order to market the book and not be, not resist, um, posting about it online or showing your book to, to people. You need to be confident that the book looks as you want to. Right? So if, if there's a cover that like, doesn't resonate with you and you know, the designer told you like, this is great, this will sell well and all that.

Elizabeth Wilson: 13:22

Mm-hmm.

Karolina Wudniak: 13:23

Yes. Maybe from like the selling perspective, but someone has to sell it. And if you as the selling person, you don't feel good about the cover, you will at some point you will resist, you know, posting it, uh, online or. Going to the events where you can sell it in person or like, you know, doing lots, lots of different, marketing ideas, but you will struggle with, uh, with them because you don't like your cover. So whenever I work with a, with an author, we, we strive to get the cover, like to the point where I get an email, yes, this is it. I love it. It's perfect.

Elizabeth Wilson: 14:01

I love that. Yeah, that's exactly where everyone wants to end up, especially if not only you're the marketer and the seller and everything of the book, but you're also the subject of the book because you've written a memoir. You know, you really have to love that cover. And having your picture on it may not be answer for everyone. You

Karolina Wudniak: 14:17

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, you know, I think for memoirs, um. It makes sense for your picture to be there if you are like famous person, right? And someone sees your face on the cover and says, oh, I wanna read about her or his life, right?

Elizabeth Wilson: 14:33

Mm-hmm.

Karolina Wudniak: 14:33

But if, like, if the story of your life is ma way more important than like who you are because you know you are the first time out or you, you don't have like a huge following on social media. You are not a celebrity. Um, then nobody knows your face anyway, right? Like, not a lot of people will know when, when they see your face that, oh, she has a great story to tell. Right? So for me, it's in memoirs it would be more important to, to focus on the cover, on like, what is the story that you're trying to, um, to show the world and not necessarily like who you, how, how you look, right?

Elizabeth Wilson: 15:14

Yeah, absolutely. What sort of lead up time to publication do you work under with authors? Like at what point should an author. Approach you about cover design? At what point leading up to publication, should they be in touch with you about interior formatting? How close to the final version of their book do they need to be and, are there, you know, additional later steps that happen, like right before publication? What does that look like timeline wise?

Karolina Wudniak: 15:45

I would say as soon as possible to start. Um, and that's because, you know, designers will have different workloads and it might be that the designer that you chose and because you love other work, from them, they are booked up. Three, four months in advance. Right? So that, that's already give you like few months of, of waiting time for them to even start working on your cover. Right. Um, but as for this process itself, for like, it's, I would say it's safe to have like 10 to 14 weeks. 40 for the, the whole pro design process. Design phase of the cover and interior. Um, because it takes time, right. You know, the, the ideas need to develop the, there's always a bit of communication, you know, back and forth, uh, with, with revisions and with feedback and with some proofreading edits and all that. And you know, it sometimes takes like two days for someone to reply and then, you know, you might, life happen along the way, right? Or some vacation or. Other things that, that comes up. So it's always good to, to have that in mind and kind of give yourself like a buffer of, of time as well. And I would say an important step as well to, to include in your timeline would be to add about two, three weeks for like the proofing time when, when you already have. When you have the files from the designer and you printed them out from the printer, and that's, you know, with self-publishing authors, that's often, uh, Amazon, KDP or, or Ingram Spark. But like, when, when you order the, the outdoor copy from them, it sometimes take a week or a week and a half for it to arrive to your house. So always have that buffer time for, for this. So we can actually, before you wanna launch the book, um, so we can actually see how it looks like. In real life, in, in a printed version. Um, and I see sometimes authors don't, don't, don't think about it and don't include it. And it's kind of, you know, I'm sending the final files on Monday and their lunch, lunch date is on Thursday for, for the book. Right. And if something prints with some errors or like, not exactly the way you want it. Then it's like, you know, it's pretty tight. And of course you can, you know, you can, you can upload the file once again later on. But like, if you are doing a book launch and inviting people to buy the book and you're doing like an event, you wanna be sure that like the quality of the product that you're, you're showing you are launching is like, you know, at the top right.

Elizabeth Wilson: 18:31

Mm-hmm.

Karolina Wudniak: 18:31

that's, that's something to, to consider as well. Um. So, yeah, I would say like, you know, have those three months, that's like for this, for the design stage itself, and then to start thinking about it, who you wanna work with, um, that's like, you know, start even earlier because you, you may not, the, the designer may not have the aava availability to, to work with you, uh, when you are ready.

Elizabeth Wilson: 18:57

Sure, sure. Yeah. I, I'm asking for, for personal reasons, even because I'm starting to think about, you know, I know that there's a lot of lead up and that certainly you can have the cover design already done, you know, even a year before you know, you release, because that can become marketing material that you then use to promote your book. Um. I like, I just sent my manuscript off to my editor so she's got it for this month, and then I'll get it back. I'll make tweaks and changes, then I'll send it out to beta readers, get feedback, makes tweaks and changes,

Karolina Wudniak: 19:32

Yeah,

Elizabeth Wilson: 19:32

to a copywriter. So I'm just trying to start to mentally, uh, map out. what point I need to secure something to do cover design and interior formatting and how that lines up with the

Karolina Wudniak: 19:46

yeah,

Elizabeth Wilson: 19:47

stages as well. So that's very helpful to hear

Karolina Wudniak: 19:49

yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson: 19:51

both

Karolina Wudniak: 19:51

I.

Elizabeth Wilson: 19:51

actual work time involved, but also the potential lead up of other projects that that person you wanna work with may have, you know, already on deck.

Karolina Wudniak: 19:59

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so I would say in, in your case, it would be good time to start like, you know, browsing. I dunno if, if you've already done that or not, but like, browsing work of designers and like figuring out who would you like to work with.'cause you know, the, the other thing is that. You will for, for a few weeks or a few months even, you will be in touch with this person. You will be collaborating with them. Um, and you want, you want that collaboration to be smooth and fun. So you want to have to, to find a designer that's, you know, you are vibing with, right. So that's why it's, it's worth to get on a call with, with the person and just see if you like them, you know, if you would go with them to drink coffee. Right. If, if you don't, if you feel that there's something like the vibe is not right, then maybe it is not.'cause then you, you might struggle with, with collaborating with this person for like the next few months. Right. So this is also important, important part of choosing who to work with.

Elizabeth Wilson: 21:01

Yeah, very good point. It's so important that like those vibes match up just like when you're selecting an editor, right?

Karolina Wudniak: 21:07

Yep.

Elizabeth Wilson: 21:07

you're trusting with, any portion of your book, I just got off a, another guest recording with an audio book narrator. I don't know what order they'll, these episodes will come out with but's, the same thing like you. This, you're entrusting these other creatives with various portions of, um, your process in order to get your book from your computer screen and file, know, into the hands of readers or into the ears of readers in the case of audiobook. And it's so important that they can. Resonate with your message that they understand your concept, that you are, especially when you're talking about, you know, doing design elements that you naturally already gravitate to. Similar design choices like buying a house with someone, right? If you have like totally different like checklist and wishlist and someone prefers like. I don't know why I started this analogy, and I don't know anything about architecture, but just very different. Like something very modern and clean and clean lines and someone like something more cozy, cottagey, like you're gonna have a hard time coming to a common ground.

Karolina Wudniak: 22:10

Yep.

Elizabeth Wilson: 22:11

someone who has a similar aesthetic and vibe, then you're already like past so many of the, well, what do we want the front door to look like? What should this be? How many you know?

Karolina Wudniak: 22:21

Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson: 22:21

open floor plan or individual rooms?

Karolina Wudniak: 22:24

Yeah. I think like that's a pretty extreme example to compare to, but yeah, I get, I get it and I agree and it's, um, you know. Even the way, the way you communicate and like all, not only the, the aesthetics of the designs that the designer does, but like everything, you know, if it's a business owner or like freelancer or however you wanna call, the designer, um, like however they work. When you, when you, when you're choosing the designer, it's, it's not only the aesthetics, um, that, that will vibe together, but also everything you know around, like how do they communicate with you? What's their, what's their style when it comes to, you know, like the contract, the, the proposal, like how do they do that? Like it's, those are all small things. Like what's their customer service level like, right. You know, they will be providing a service to you and you won't. To be well taken care of. Not only like just to get the, the design cover or the interior, but you want the whole experience to be positive. Right? So that's something to, to keep in mind too.

Elizabeth Wilson: 23:34

Yeah, and I think that's where, you know, some people will make choices to, you know, choose a designer off of like Fiverr or one of those other services, and those tend to be a lot more. Streamlined in what you get. Like you, they give you one design and you get to make a couple of tweaks to it, and that's sort of the end of the customer service experience, right? And so, yes, you might pay less for that kind of design and depending on. The, you know, the level of scale you want for your book sales and stuff, maybe that's totally sufficient for the project that you're working on. But if you want more of that customer service, if you want more of that collaborative piece, that's where I think you go with someone who has an established business and presence that you know, like you said, you're vibing with, that you have good communication with. Um. That, you know, will support you throughout that process. And what you bring to the table too. which I wanna make sure we highlight in this conversation, is that marketing piece. Because you also have an eye for the marketing, and I know that's a separate service you offer, but you're also keeping those sort of features and aspects in mind as you're doing all of this design work.

Karolina Wudniak: 24:46

Yeah, so like the, the, the service, the marketing service that I offer is based on the design itself. So those are like, you know, I can, I can provide you with all sorts of design assets that you might need, for example, for social media or, you know. I can, I can provide you with design for some bookmarks that you're gonna print, or, uh, talkback or whatever you need for the actual, life events that, that you're attending with your book. Um, so I do that piece, like I don't, well, I have, I have a list of recommendations of marketing people who can help you with like a book launch or, you know. The actual marketing strategies that you can implement to, to do, uh, to, to sell your books. So I don't do this because that's not my area of expertise. I know, you know, like bits and pieces, but not enough to, to offer the service. But I, yeah, I do offer like the design, marketing support, um, and that, that works mostly when you already have some kind of marketing strategy. And this is what I'm seeing, the, the authors that choose to, to add that on to the project, they already have some sort of an idea or like very clear strategy on how they're gonna be promoting the book. For out that like didn't prepare the marketing piece. Um, and that, and they get like, you know, the final files to, to print the book. And they do that and it's kind of like they're, it's like we're done, right? And it's like, yes, but also you're at the very beginning.'cause now you have to sell the book. Right? If that's your goal.'cause it's fine if you're printing the book because you wanted to publish the book, right? So that's, that's totally fine. And then you don't have to worry about the marketing piece. Um, but I find that those authors. They don't have the marketing strategy in, in their head. So they're like, yeah, I don't need any designs for, you know, for marketing because like, because they don't know where they would use it. Right.

Elizabeth Wilson: 26:44

Mm-hmm.

Karolina Wudniak: 26:44

So that's where, where it stands on, um. Yeah, I would say that the marketing piece is really important and the sooner you're gonna start thinking about this, um the better your book sales will be. And you know, you don't have to do it all by yourself.'cause there are great specialists, um, in, in marketing that can help you market your book and can help you figure out either the strategy or the implementation of the strategy. So, you know. It depends. And I, I had a great chat, um, in May, my last workshop that I did for the indie book lab, it's like a month monthly free workshops that, that I run. Um. Not in, not during vacation time because it's, you know, it's summer vacation, kids at home. So I'm po pos pausing for now. Um, but my guest was marketing strategies and like, her advice was start as soon as possible with, with thinking about marketing and, you know, working on, on the, on it strategically and working on your, your marketing plan for the book. So yeah, it's an important piece.

Elizabeth Wilson: 27:55

Absolutely. And we'll have a, a guest this fall season that's gonna talk about that as well. Same, same string of advice. As soon as you have an idea that you wanna write a book, you should already be marketing said book.

Karolina Wudniak: 28:05

Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson: 28:06

there's no such thing as like too long of a like launchpad, right?

Karolina Wudniak: 28:10

Yeah, exactly.

Elizabeth Wilson: 28:11

as much time to build up that momentum and get people excited as you can.

Karolina Wudniak: 28:16

Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson: 28:16

Um. In these last few minutes of our episode today, I wonder if you would share a little bit more about that indie book club. I know you focus on art strategy and design for self-publishing, but what can people expect out of that free offering?

Karolina Wudniak: 28:31

Yeah, so these are like one hour webinars. I intended the space to be an open space so we can also like, have a conversations and I do invite guests to each workshop. I will probably, I think I will probably run some, some on designs by myself or I will team up with, with another book designer. Uh,'cause that can be interesting as well. But they are designed that, you know, there is like 30 minutes of conversation on, on the topic with the guest, and then there's also like 15 minutes open floor for everyone to just kind of, you know, chat and exchange ideas, ask questions to, to the, to the expert guest. Um, so yeah, that's, this is how I intended the space. And it's, I think it's working. It's so much fun for me as well. And I think you can attest to it too, with having guests on the podcast, you are learning so much. It's like I, when I, when I was, uh, figuring it out if I want to do it, I didn't even consider like this piece that I will be learning

Elizabeth Wilson: 29:34

I do it

Karolina Wudniak: 29:34

much. Yeah, exactly right. It's, it's so much fun. So yeah. I'm gonna keep going. Like the next one will be in September and we will be chatting about public relations

Elizabeth Wilson: 29:44

Oh, I

Karolina Wudniak: 29:44

for your book. Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson: 29:46

I love that. Yes. No, I can absolutely attest to that. You know, Stephanie and I started the podcast arm of the business to serve as sort of a marketing piece of the business early on. the reason we keep going is absolutely for our own, you know, self enjoyment. I get so much creative energy from getting to talk to people like you, and it gets me excited about things. I learn so much. This is how I piece together. What, what sort of. Experts I wanna hire for my own projects, the kind of people that I then recommend to other writing friends. So it's,

Karolina Wudniak: 30:23

Yep.

Elizabeth Wilson: 30:23

because, well, you know, you might spend, you know, uh, a call with someone who might be interested in hiring you. I get a whole podcast with you, right? So it's like I get to ask whatever questions I have,

Karolina Wudniak: 30:35

Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson: 30:36

that are hopefully then beneficial to our listener as well in keeping them in mind. But the thing is, I'm part of the target audience as well, so I know if I have these questions that other people probably have them too. So

Karolina Wudniak: 30:47

Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson: 30:48

for you and being willing to come on here, not only sharing that free monthly resource, which we'll make sure that we have links for and contact information for in the show notes. Um, and I'm curious if you would leave us with a little bit of a tip on something that you see, um, nonfiction writers, particularly for this. Topic of this podcast memoir, writers, like an error that they have a tendency to make when it comes to either cover design choices or interior formatting that you would caution them against or help us avoid a major roadblock or detour. We don't need to waste our time or money going down.

Karolina Wudniak: 31:29

That's a good question. Um, I don't think, like, I have some one thing that's coming up, but like one, like, it's not, it's not really connected, you know, to the formatting itself. But like one thing that, um, a lot of self-publishing outdoors, um, don't do is they. Often don't work with professional editor.

Elizabeth Wilson: 31:54

Mm.

Karolina Wudniak: 31:55

And I would highly, highly, highly recommend doing that. Um, that's also because, it affects the formatting piece as well because, you know, when I'm formatting the book, um, I find a lot of errors and mistakes that could be avoided if they would be edited, right? So. I always encourage my authors to hire professional editor and work with them just to, to have like a clean and, you know, high quality text. Right, because you, you can self edit the book. Yes, you can do it, you can use the software like Grammarly or, or other ones that are, that, that are, that are out there. But it's still not the same as having a real person, a real editor, like go through your file and see things that you cannot see anymore because you are too close to your work. It's the same as we were chatting about the design, right? You know, it's the fresh perspective, fresh pair of eyes that will give you ideas. And I'm not even talking about the developmental editing, I'm talking about like copy editing, yet just that so you can. So you avoid having errors in your book.'cause that like when a reader reads a book that's like super unprofessional to, to have a book that's like full of errors. And I'm not saying, you know, there, most of the times there will be like pew errors, like yeah, one or two wrong commas or something like missing letter in a word. It's how it happens. And that's fine when it happens. Like, you know, one in a 200 pages book, right? But when it's every page you just stumble upon error upon error.

Elizabeth Wilson: 33:33

Mm.

Karolina Wudniak: 33:33

You stop reading the book, you won't read it, you won't finish it. So I that would be my piece of advice to like, get the editing, uh, done. Like, you know, when you have, when you're figuring out the budget for, for the production of the book, include the editing in the process. Like even if you have to get that money from elsewhere, um, in, you know, from, from other bucket of the, of the budget, uh, for a book, it's worth it.

Elizabeth Wilson: 33:57

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I just wrote, um, an email newsletter about this and about how, you know, there are those programs like pro writing aid and that use, you know, technology and AI and stuff to give you recommendations and they might highlight something like passive voice or give you something to like. Make something more concise, but they're not gonna tell you when you've accidentally switched a character's name

Karolina Wudniak: 34:22

Yeah,

Elizabeth Wilson: 34:22

gonna tell you when something is unclear and confusing. They're not gonna tell, you know, so they're not, it's not gonna notice when you put the wrong, properly spelled word, you

Karolina Wudniak: 34:33

Yeah,

Elizabeth Wilson: 34:33

like that. And that's where, you know, using an editor can be so valuable. So yes, that's a

Karolina Wudniak: 34:37

exactly.

Elizabeth Wilson: 34:38

that if we're investing so much into cover, we also wanna have quality on the inside too.

Karolina Wudniak: 34:45

Yes.

Elizabeth Wilson: 34:47

Because the cover and the formatting are meant to enhance the story that is there. And so therefore, you want a great story with punctuation and grammar

Karolina Wudniak: 34:57

And beautifully formatted.

Elizabeth Wilson: 34:59

Yes. Yes. Um, well thank you again, Carolina, for being here with us today.

Karolina Wudniak: 35:06

Thank you for having me.

Elizabeth Wilson: 35:07

do you wanna share where people can find you and connect with you?

Karolina Wudniak: 35:11

Yeah, so, uh, the easiest way, it's from my website, carolina ak.com. Um, and I, I know it might be difficult to, you know, spell it, um, but there will be a link for sure. Yes, perfect. That's, that's perfect. Um, or, uh, I'm active on LinkedIn and I'm also active on Instagram as well. Um, so you can, you can find me there too. And, um, yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Elizabeth Wilson: 35:39

Thank you so much. I learned so much today. I really appreciate it.