Episode 109: [Cynthia Merrill] Your Writing Process Isn't Broken

Have you ever tried following someone's writing advice? You've read all the books with guidelines for getting your outline done or advice about setting up your writing schedule, yet you're still feeling like something's not quite right. Like maybe the problem isn't your commitment to the process, but the fact that the method itself was never designed for the way YOU actually think and create? On this week's episode of the Inspired Writer Collective, we welcome editor and writing coach Cynthia Merrill who completely reframed Elizabeth's thinking about the writing process. Cynthia has developed something called the Authentic Writer Archetype Assessment, and in this conversation she walked through Elizabeth's results live. Here's what came up in the conversation:

• Why writing advice that works well for one writer can actually sabotage another
• Insight into why many memoir writers quit before they finish (hint: it's not what you think)
• Figuring out the support systems you actually need before spending money on programs, editors, or writing groups

Give it a listen and let us know what resonates.

About our guest Cynthia Merrill: 

Cynthia Merrill is a developmental editor, writing coach, and creator of the Authentic Writer Archetypes—a system dedicated to helping writers understand their creative needs and build a sustainable, authentic, and joyful writing practice. While she holds a BA in Editing and Publishing, her real education has come from years of working side by side with writers in the depths of the creative process. Cynthia hosts The Way You Write podcast and lives in Phoenix, AZ with her two kids and a dog named Jasper. 

Connect with Cynthia Merrill:

Website: ​cynthiamerrillediting.com ​

IG: ​https://www.instagram.com/cynthiamerrillediting/​

Free Author Archetype Assessment: ​https://www.cynthiamerrillediting.com/assessment

 Welcome to the Inspired Writer Collective podcast. If you've ever felt the pull to write your truth, to shape the chaos of real life into something meaningful and to share your journey with the world, you're in the right place. We're your hosts, Elizabeth and Stephanie, writers, coaches, and entrepreneurs who believe in you and know how important it is to find a writing community to guide you on your path to self-publishing.

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Join our Embodied Writing Experience where you’ll get a writer’s retreat directly to your inbox on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays each week. This is an invitation to slow down, tune in, and write with embodied intention.   

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Transcript

Elizabeth Wilson 1:20

Welcome back listeners to another episode of the Inspired Writer Collective podcast. I'm your host, Elizabeth, and today I am joined by Cynthia Merrill, and she is an editor who works with writers at all stages of the process. And I specifically am interested in talking to you today, Cynthia, because you have developed this authentic writer archetype assessment that you've used in your. Coaching and editing. It was something that once I put in my own, you know, answers to your quiz and got my assessment back, that I was really interested in how to apply that to my own writing and understanding of myself. But also as a memoir coach, it's also something that I would love to use with the women that I coach to better understand where they're coming from in their own writing processes. And how I meet them there. So please share with us a little bit about how that came about, how you're using it, and what benefits you see to it.

Cynthia Merrill 2:22

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. I'm really excited to talk about it today'cause this is something that is near and dear to my heart. Um, there are a lot of writers out there who. Have maybe felt like they are on the outskirts in terms of their writing process or their process feels kind of confusing to them and they hit these roadblocks that they don't understand. Or like maybe growing up and in school people talked about writing, like you had to do it a very specific way where it's like, okay. You gotta start with a brainstorm map, and then you have to turn that into an outline. And like, like obviously, you know, teachers have to figure out a way to teach the basics of writing and the basics of brainstorming. But what I've noticed, um,'cause I've worked with so many writers that work so differently at this point, and it was interesting because I, I started to notice that there were writers who were doing like the same stage of the creative process. But they were doing it completely differently, but they were still accomplishing like the same task within the creative process. Like they were like expanding their idea or they were collecting ideas for the next stage or whatever it was. But the way that they went about it was really unique. To them. And, and the more that I started to reflect on all the writers that I had worked with and reflect on my own writing process, I started to realize that there were these patterns in how people were showing up. And it kind of grouped into these, into these categories, into these archetypes. Um. And so then that's when I, um, created the assessment first as a way just for me as a, as a writing coach and an editor to, to work with people so that I wasn't suggesting things that worked counter to how they naturally work best. Um,'cause that's the whole theory behind this, is that there are ways that we naturally approach the creative process. They aren't things that somebody taught us. Like while, even though that. You know, can be helpful. It's how like you naturally as a writer want to bring something into the world and it includes like what you care about the most. It includes sort of like your style choices, all of those things. And so that's where this assessment came about, was so that I could better help the people that I was working with. Um, and then the more that I started to use it, the more that I realized this is really great for people to understand their own process and for people like you were mentioning who are helping other writers and they're like. This writer works completely differently than I do and I don't know how to help them. That's, you know, kind of my purpose on bringing this into the world.'cause we need all of the writers and we need them all to feel like they can get something from idea stage all the way to completion. And this is one of the ways that I like to do that.

Elizabeth Wilson 5:06

I feel like it also hits on a little bit of a theme that Stephanie and I have been exploring in the podcast this season of the times that the writing advice that you hear is just not. Supportive of who you are as a writer. And we've talked about it in regards to like Neurodivergence, um, in the ways that you can't always just sit down and turn on and how you might work in like a hyper-focused sprint and then need to take a lot of space away from your writing project and how there shouldn't, we shouldn't impart so much shame on ourselves for when that standard writing advice actually doesn't work for us and how important it is as writers. To like, the first challenge is seems to be just figuring out what works for you as a writer, and then that's why when I met you and, and came into contact with this assessment that you've developed, it really seemed like a great answer to the question that so many writers struggle with, especially on their first project. Of like, well, how do I make myself do this? Like, I'm really passionate about this story. I know I want to write this, but they find themselves getting so frustrated in the process, they're following the like, you know, standard advice. And what I think this could do for writers is help them see the ways that they can lean into their own strengths. And not grow So frustrated in the process to where they quit the project altogether.

Cynthia Merrill 6:41

abso well.'cause that is, I would say that. It's like the emotional components of the creative process that are more likely to get you to quit than like the, just the practical parts of it. And sometimes it's when we struggle with the practical parts of it, then the emotional stuff comes in and we have all these messages about, well, I'm struggling with this because I'm bad at this, or

Elizabeth Wilson 7:02

No.

Cynthia Merrill 7:02

struggling with this. Because like other people understand something about writing that I don't and I never will, or my brain just doesn't work this way, therefore I'm not cut out to do this. And that's like, I feel like what I love the most about this assessment is that it takes away this layer of shame of like. Like,'cause we just sometimes just see these parts of ourselves and we assume it's a problem and it's like, it's just a neutral thing. It's something to either accommodate for, it's something to either, um, you know, communicate through, like with yourself or if you're working with somebody else, like, or with, you know, your writing group. It, like, for example, I know some people that in a writing group and they kind of have an expectation of a certain timeline that they'll share pages. And after doing this, she realized. I need to talk to my writing group about that part of the experience because I need the social support, but I can't have that kind of pressure in terms of a timeline right now. And so I need them to help me explore other things within that timeframe instead of like actually. Pages that I'm sending to them might hear that and they're like, well, you're just being lazy. Or you're, you know, just like you have to get these pages out and whatever, and it's like, okay, let's play that tape. Let's say you do that. Let's say you keep pushing, let's say you keep trying to meet that standard always. Like I always, you might get some final result, I always find that you're either going to seriously burnout. And you're not going to finish because it just is like pulling teeth the whole way. Or you'll get to the finish line and then you like step away from writing for a very, very long time because it's damaged your relationship with the process. And so that is the last thing that I want for the writers that I'm working with. And I, it sounds like that's something that you value too. You're like this, has to be. Beautiful, exciting. Like, like for me, the, the three areas that I focus on, like I want it to be sustainable. Whatever you're doing, it's gotta be sustainable. Um, it has to be authentic to you. Um, and that's part of what makes it sustainable is when it's authentic. And then also just like joyful. Like I want this process to be something that is meaningful, that is very, um, like validating of who you are. And it's something that makes you feel alive. And if it's, you know, if you're like making progress and it's your own authentic way, but. It's not like lighting you up either. it's important to make sure that this is, um, something that you look forward to.'cause that's what you do it long term.

Elizabeth Wilson 9:32

Yeah. Because by the time you get to the end of the project, right, you get your, your book published, now you have the long journey of promoting it. And so if you've already burned out just trying to get that book into the, like, catalogs and, you know, um, directories, now you've gotta promote it. Where is that energy gonna come from if you've just like clawed your way to the end? Um.

Cynthia Merrill 10:00

Or if you were doing it like somebody else's way, it does impact the way that the story comes out. It really does. And, and kind of the creative decisions that you make. And so then you're not even gonna feel excited about promoting it because you're like, is it what I wanted it to be? I don't know, like I got to the end, but. And then, so you're just like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna market this. Really? Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson 10:21

So what does that look like in regards to. Providing structure for the people you're working with and also. Taking into consideration the various types. I mean, I know for you, I think you typically work one-on-one, and I'm asking a little bit more of like, how would you manage that in a group setting? Like would you present lots of options of like, here's at the point where you need to do an outline. An outline could look like this, or this or this,

Cynthia Merrill 10:54

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Wilson 10:54

on, you know, your preference and your style.

Cynthia Merrill 10:57

Absolutely. And um, so really what the archetypes, like your sort of overall. Combination that that speak the most to you. They focus on like these four areas. What are your needs for structure? What are your needs in terms of like schedule, what are your social needs? And then also what is like the spark? Like that. The spark is sort of what is the reason that you write in the first place? What is sort of what helps you to feel successful? Like when you're, when you are doing that part of the process, this is what motivates you and makes you feel like connected to your purpose. And so I know that in like a group setting, like I'm, um, creating. My own group coaching part of it. And, and the idea is that, that it's, we're not all hitting the same milestones at the same time. Mm-hmm. Um, it's not that you go through the same exact journey. The point of, and the way that I structure that group is it's more about, um, the consistency in having support to talk through, to brainstorm, like at these kind of. moments throughout the month and having a space where you can ask questions and, and do things. Because I've noticed, especially for'cause we'll dive into your results, but you are somebody who has a high need for structure in your process and there are other people who. Assume that they have to have really intense structure and, and sometimes we hear the word structure and we hear the complicated like, or like complex, you know, that it's like, oh, well I need structure. And we assume that that has to be like some complicated system. And I use this example with, um. Some of the writers that I was talking to the other day,'cause they were asking about structure. Like I don't have any archetypes that really provide like structure and that's stressing me out because like, how am I supposed to do this in a structured way? And, and I talked about, um, I was like, well I have like a laundry system in my house. It is not. structured. My laundry system is that I have a laundry basket in each room of the house, and I, there's not like a specific day of the week that I do laundry. There's not like, like I don't have like a system beyond that because I know when I walk by a laundry basket and it looks full,

Elizabeth Wilson 13:15

Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Merrill 13:15

kind of just like, it triggers something in me. To go take that, where I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna go stick it in the washer. don't have a system for making sure that it makes it from the washer to the dryer either. So sometimes I forget it in the washer, you know, sometimes like I remember to set a timer or whatever. usually, usually I remember at some point to switch it into the dryer, and then maybe I leave it in the dryer for a little bit, but at some point I'm gonna wash another load and then it like, it, it like kicks the process forward. And so somebody might hear that and like, well, that's a crazy system, you know, but like, it just keeps the flow going. And that's really the purpose of a system. It's not necessarily to do things like. On a certain day and, and really like trusting. If I really needed something that I had washed and is sitting in the dryer, I would've probably gone and found it and then that would've kind of inspired me to fold the rest of it. But that's what I'm talking about in terms of systems or like, not everybody needs like a classic outline. Um, for example, somebody who might have like a stronger weaver tendency, which is how I operate. Um. for you might not be an outline, but it might be that as you've collected these ideas and pieces of your story, you just stick'em up on the wall. You like, write'em down on a note card and you stick'em up on the wall in roughly the order that you think this story might go, and that's not, and then you kind of look and you're like, oh, there's kind of a hole here. And then your brain sits in noodles on it for a while. But that's not you sitting and saying, okay, I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna like, structure my whole idea and like plan it all out. Which like for you is like, you're like, that's exactly, I, I, I gotta have a framework, I gotta have something. gonna help you to be more creative. But for somebody else. Whenever I, I, I have done this several times, different projects where I'm like, okay, this time I'm gonna outline before I start, I do it, I sit down to write and then I immediately don't listen to anything that I outlined where I'm like, actually, I don't know. None of that is what I need at all. Which like is so crazy to some people'cause it's like, but that's just, I've learned that about myself, that I can logically plot and outline something. But then every time I sit down to write my heart, like the inspiration is like, Nope, we're going this way. And so I've just learned it's not a good use of my time and focus and energy to like do that technical step of outlining. maybe I learned a couple of things about it, but it's just not, it's, it's, it's, it's fighting against my natural tendencies, so I don't really do it anymore.

Elizabeth Wilson 15:53

All right. Well, I think this is a good time to sort of root the listener in what we're talking about on this like broader spectrum. Let's dig into what my assessment showed and, and as you state, you're usually looking at your top three to five. It's not just your top one. Um, and that's important because at least in my situation, my top one is the architect, which as you indicated, requires a lot of structure. Really relies on the outline, the framework in order to collect your thoughts and start writing. But then my next one is the Weaver, which you just described as someone who maybe likes to put the things all kind of like in a wall list. Them all kind of have a sense that this belongs somewhere, and I'm not sure where yet.

Cynthia Merrill 16:36

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Wilson 16:36

ironically, I have used both of those processes through like my initial planning and then also a reverse outline. Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Merrill 16:45

is interesting because Weaver is your second. second highest, um, or you've got like a, a triple, but, so, so for the listener, I wanna give an example, um, of this and break down your process so that they can kind of, um, see the results and understand what I'm, you know, how this works and what kinds of things I'm looking at when I'm doing this with like, somebody that I'm working with one-on-one, I really do look at, like, I'm looking at how you're answering each of the questions too. Um, because sometimes that like adds. Like a little bit of difference in, in how you're showing up, but we're gonna do like a little bit more of a general one that, um, will still give good information. So there are 12 archetypes, and I won't go over all of them, but again, they show those needs for structure, your scheduled social, um, and then that spark. And usually you're very top archetype is, um, or at least like the, the things that are most important. Is going to contain like that spark more than anything. Um, because it is sort of your, it's like the main way you operate, but it's also what matters most to you in writing. So I've pulled up yours and your top. is an architect. Now, architects, one of the things that is most satisfying to them about the whole writing process is like chaos and turning it into order. Um, you know, and which, like you've talked to me about, you know, even when you're telling like your, your memoir, uh, or like a story of your life, um. That is a big thing. You're taking all of these events and you're putting them into this, this container, and you're putting'em into this space that, that feels organized, that feels, um, crafted and architects function best. Um, you function best when you have like some kind of outline or framework to start your process with. Um, other people are starting their process different ways, but for you, it really helps you to have some sort of structure to start out with. And. interesting thing is that your secondary is a weaver, though there are some architects that like they'll do, um. Like multiple rounds of outlining before they even start writing. I don't remember if you said that that was part of your process. It's usually just one. Okay. And so there are some architects that, that they really like. Their outlining phase is a very creative part of their process and they're like working through a lot of bugs just in the outlining process for you, that secondary weaver shows that. That you kind of flow in the way that you're doing your outline. That it's not, um, you're not just like going through and like, okay, I'm gonna start at the very beginning of this outline and I'm just gonna like methodically go down. You get ideas and you plug them into that structure as you go. Okay. Like this is probably gonna happen around the mid. Point. Okay. What is this part of it? Oh, this kind of feels like a way I should introduce this, or, oh, I forgot about this scene. I don't know quite where it fits within this outline, but I know it fits in here. So let me just gather those pieces. Weavers are very much about, um, you know, it's like they gather these threads that they don't necessarily know how they fit together yet, but that, um, when they piece them together well, when they piece them together, you get even more like rich layered. Aspects to it. So you function really best when you have like that sort of like structure, but then allowing yourself to kind of flow in the way that you create it. but it's also interesting because have visionary and maximalist. Right alongside that weaver. A visionary means that you need like a clear reason or a clear motivation for why you're writing this because you have a desire to like spark a larger conversation out in the world. Um, you want to challenge a perspective or like a misconception that's out there in the world. Um. usually something about the process, and so I could see you as you go to outline that. That's one of the first things that you need to kind of like gravitate towards and figure out. Um, somebody that is like more architect weaver but is, doesn't have that strong focus, could kind of like, I don't know. I'll figure this outline out and we'll see what the meaning is as I create it. But for you, you're like, Nope. I need to know my meaning. I need to know my purpose ahead of time. helps to guide what pieces I collect and, and how I focus this. But then that Maximalist is really, the maximalist shows, like it kind of comes in and colors the whole process and is like, you're probably having a pretty beefy outline. Like it's, it's not going to be just like the bare minimum. You're like. No. Okay. Uh, I'm, I'm gonna put it all into this outline and, and later on I'll figure out if there are parts of this that I don't necessarily need, but I would rather have more than less. And I'm the opposite. I'm very much a minimalist, like I write very bare bones first drafts, and then I'm like, okay, I gotta, I gotta breathe some life into this. I gotta like, okay, yeah, that's the plot. Technically, you know, okay, technically we got there, but okay, now we need to like. Really develop this and, and make it make more sense. for you, you're the opposite. You're like, let's just put it all in there. the last thing that I wanted to bring up about your, um, arrangement specifically in terms of like social and how you work best. Um. is this, uh, soloist piece for you that shows that you really do develop your ideas best when you're in a space of solitude. Um, and you draw a lot from like your intuition, from your emotions, from, um. your feelings and it is satisfying for you to see, like your feelings reflected back to you on the page. That's like part of what inspires you about the writing process in general. Um, and, and this is important to note in terms of yourself as a soloist because, um, sometimes people pressure themselves to get feedback really early on. Um,'cause they're like, oh, well I need eyes on my work or whatever. And, and you can trust this about yourself that you're like. know that I work best. Soloists usually work best with like one or two, like very trusted confidants who know who you are that you feel very safe with. And that can give you very focused, like specific feedback. Um, you're not somebody that does well with like, I sent this out to 20 beta readers and I got all the feedback, like other people do well with like kind of crowdsourcing and getting feedback and that would stress you out like crazy. And so. So it's, that's why it's important to look at these things about yourself and own them, because otherwise you're going to bring so much unnecessary, like, stress to your process. Um, do also have like some dreamer and athlete in there as well, but that's why we're getting into like the nitty gritty. And usually I use some of like those even further down archetypes to problem solve. Like when everything else gets stuck, it's like, okay, here's maybe one that is a little bit. Doesn't come quite as naturally to you, but it's more natural than like trying something else. And so that's usually something that I'll bring in if we're getting stuck on all of your other ways of doing it. Um, but overall it makes sense that you kind of create a space for other people and you give them this structure. To help them with their projects and, and help them in that more structured way that you excel in, because that's what you're great at and that's what works very naturally for you. And so it, it makes sense that that's been something you've brought into your pro, your process, into your group. So, that's, that's kind of an overview of what it's like to go through that and, and understand your archetypes.

Elizabeth Wilson 24:21

Uh, it's so true, and, and, and this time, you know, we've talked about this off camera. You know, when we, we first started chatting. But this time what I heard differently or, or for the first time is not just the fact that I come in and I help people provide structure, but this time I'm hearing with that visionary piece, to me that is the essential, like core message as the term I use for it. That core message of your memoir, like what are you trying to show? That speaks to the more universal nature of what it is to be human. What peace are you talking to? What misbelief did you have in the beginning of this story that you altered and came to a, you know, better, more clear understanding of yourself or your world by the end? And it's so interesting that you highlighted that as like my starting point, because that is exactly where I start my program. Not that I require anyone to have it fully defined to move on to the outline, but like that's where I start with the presenting of it. Like, let's think about what, you know, message you might have to share. And it's interesting to me that you're highlighting that that's, that's a me thing. So it may not be the most important thing for everyone else to approach first. They may find it later on. And I think that really speaks well to the way that I've designed the program and that you can repeat it as many times as you want to because you may not be ready for that more visionary core message piece the first time you go through and you outline and you start drafting a little bit. You know, that may be something that you. Integrate in later on, depending on what kind of writer style you are. The other thing I wanna highlight for listeners too is that Maximalist piece, because anyone who's on our email list and gets my Tuesday emails will know that I have been wrestling with the concept. Word count, especially as I'm getting close to the end and I'm having to hire editors and formatters and word count is like dollar signs. It is, you know, it's just raining dollar signs when you talk about publishing costs and, and all of those pieces. So, but one, one of the things that you shared with me. When we were first chatting is you encouraged me and I took it to heart that like maybe that's just something I need to embrace about my writing. Yeah. My books may cost a little bit more to make, but what I'm. Bringing to the table with that is all of this rich detail in the subplots that are running through the story and all of these layers. So it's not just a one or two dimensional thing. I am painting this whole depth of world and there will be readers that appreciate that style of writing and it, it won't be for everyone and it's certainly not the style of writing for everyone, but. Maybe by just simply not fighting against my word count.

Cynthia Merrill 27:28

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Wilson 27:29

you know, can accept that about myself.

Cynthia Merrill 27:32

Yeah. Well, and, and it's something that like, like obviously people who are maximalist, I've worked with some that, um, especially like figuring out where you need your maximalist like the most, and because yours is so high up, that's why I was like. Definitely like this is, this might just be something that you lean into because the maximalist and the weaver too are like, I have all of these beautiful, gorgeous threads and, and I could take one of them out, but then it impacts like the bigger picture and, and the bigger kind of impact that I'm having. And so for you, it, it is important to know, okay, I do write larger manuscripts. I do add all of these subplots and all of these details and finding, um. Editors to work with that understand that about you, and that you kind of almost, um, clarify with them and say, Hey, this, and maybe like tie them into your core vision and say, this is why this is all here. And if there is something that you see that, that doesn't add that impact, that maybe in my mind it really, really does. But just like bring it up and, and then I'll consider it and I'll look at it. Um, but also when it, you know. I think that there's a time and a place to like cut back when needed. But for you, it seems like. Because you're so structured and because you're so organized at the, the start of it, and because you have such a clear purpose, I'm guessing that by the time you get through your own revisions, it's, it's going to feel pretty hard to remove things

Elizabeth Wilson 28:58

It's so hard.

Cynthia Merrill 28:59

because you've been so intentional about what

Elizabeth Wilson 29:01

Yeah.

Cynthia Merrill 29:02

Yeah. I've worked with other maximalist that are maybe like a maximalist and an explorer, which means they explorers discover whatever they need to write while writing it. It's one of my secondaries. But, um, if you have like a maximalist explorer con, like you are gonna write a beefy, really messy first draft, like it is gonna be all over the place. You're gonna like, follow these threads that you know, or you're gonna cut back on later. Like, and that's somebody with that kind of combination that I would be like, Hey, I, I would really question some of the things. It's like, no, yeah, this is totally necessary. And it's like, is it though, like, I think you wrote this because you needed to figure out. What needed to happen and that's why you wrote so much. But now that you've figured out what needs to happen, I think we can cut back. so, but that's like, that I think was why when originally when we talked about it, I was like, I think you just gotta own that. You write really lengthy manuscripts and own that about yourself, plan for it, budget for it, you know, all of the things.

Elizabeth Wilson 30:01

I love that, and you've naturally already kind of taken our conversation into the next layer that I wanna explore for the listeners, which is. Be, once you have an understanding of these, of your type and your writing style, how does this impact when you should seek support? Like you mentioned that I have that soloist, so I, I hold my things a little bit closer to my chest until I'm, I'm ready to share them and I share them with a small group. Um, but also who you should seek support from. Is it from someone who. Has like some of the opposite sides, like having a minimalist editor will help like me streamline some of my word count in a way as long as I can continue to tap into my intuition about what still needs to be included. Or for someone who doesn't have a lot of heavy structure, is it detrimental to work with me as a memoir coach who really provides a lot of structure? Or is that beneficial because I can hold that space for them while they figure out what they wanna do.

Cynthia Merrill 31:02

Right. Um, I love, I love that.'cause I think that's where we move from. Like, oh, cool, these are my archetypes to like, okay, how, what do you actually do with them? Because in my mind, it's not really, you know, it's like, it's like taking like a Buzzfeed quiz and you're like, oh, what kind of soda am I? And it's like, oh, that's the kind that I am. Nice. You know? Like I never want this to feel that way. Like, oh, I'm an architect. Cool. Anyway, I am gonna go try and write my book. It's like all of these. Inform, like how you create an authentic practice that again, like will work for you in a really sustainable and like, and like, you're not gonna hate the process so much. Like if somebody came to you and said. You really need to like go with the flow more and like, just like take, like throw out the outline, just follow your gut. And it's like, yeah, you could maybe do that for a while, but then eventually you're gonna be like, I can't, I need something to ground me in this. Like, I can't do that loosey goosey, you know, way of moving it. So when you're looking at your own results. Um, that's something that you can, you can consider is, um, sometimes it's about just looking at like, kind of where your gaps might be in your process and you could find somebody that kind of counterbalances that. But I found that it's most helpful that it's not. I found that what actually works is leaning into your strengths more than just like, okay, these are how I naturally approach it and I need to. fill in the, like the empty space more just like own and lean into your process. Like somebody who's a weaver and like collects all of these pieces. Like primarily they might just assume I'm never gonna get anything organized because. I need some kind of structure to put this into. Um, but you look at like, which of your archetypes offers an, like a version of structure, even if it's not, or what would structure look like for that archetype? Like with the weaver weavers don't do well with like a strict outline, but they do really well with a system. In terms of when I get an idea for this, where am I going to put that idea? Okay. I have a, a note in my notes app that is just for character descriptions. Cool. Awesome. I'm gonna stick that there and just collect it as I go. So those kind of systems. Are a way that you can have structure for your archetype that don't look like strict outlining. And then when you go to like, okay, well I wanna write, oh, I need something about this character. Oh, lemme look back at my character descriptions. Oh, this is the thing that I wanted to use. and, and somebody might look at that and like, that feels chaotic. But to a weaver that feels like being alive. Like, yes, like. let's go over here and let's do this, like, like that kind of flow and the moving of energy is what makes it work. So, um, one of the things that's really important to do is whenever you're looking to like, invest in a resource or invest in working with a person, um, to, to first understand what are my needs? What do I need as a writer? Not what, not what do they think that I need? Because like, yes. is important for, you know, whoever you're working with, and I always like to make sure that I'm being, like, I'm asking those kind of questions and understanding and, and getting that picture of what somebody needs. That's something that I value a lot. Some editors are a little bit more of like, here's how I work, here's what I care about most. Is that what you want? Um, but this is how you can stop Also just like buying the next PDF of like, this is what's gonna help you get to it. Or like, joining tons of different groups trying to figure out, okay, is this what I need? Is it like, you can start first with, okay. What do I, how do I actually work best? And is this environment supportive of that? If this is a place where they're doing like weekly sprints and there's an expectation that everybody's showing up to it, and that's part of this, okay, is that gonna work for me? Is that gonna motivate me and feel good? Is it not? Sometimes you have to experiment a little bit, but I feel like the assessment helps to take that out. If you're being really honest with like, that sounds like the worst. I hate that. You know? Um, the more honest you can be when you take the assessment, the clearer your results will be. But then you can, yeah, you can look at and filter through.'cause that was a big thing that we talked about at the beginning is there's, there's so much advice out there everybody. If they've found what works for them, they like, almost like proselytize it. They're like, this is the one true

Elizabeth Wilson 35:27

No way. Yeah.

Cynthia Merrill 35:28

the way of doing it. Because for them it is the way for them to do it, they, um, you know, or it's like, like it's this genius way that they figured out how to work with all of these different parts of themselves and make it through the process. And honestly like that's, that's just like, that's lucky. That's great. That's fortunate that their process has been validated in that way. But for somebody who's at the beginning and just assumes like, maybe I'm not gonna get there if I keep going this way. Like I guarantee I have seen a. So many different combinations of archetypes and different things leading the way, different things in that more secondary, and they all work. They all work. Some of them require just like different support at different times in different areas, but they all work and they can all get you to a finished project, like project or product at some point as long as like you just trust them and, and you continue in the path that like your instincts are taking you.

Elizabeth Wilson 36:25

Well, and this is exactly why I am pushing myself to offer a little bit more of like one-on-one coaching. So yes, I have this program, but if I'm working one-on-one with someone who has a different kind of need. Based off of their own writing styles and I can cater and tweak the different pieces. Like I do have a very wery aspect to the way I do outline, because that's my second one where we talk through scene cards where, you know, writing memoir, you're kind of limited to what happened in your life, but if you know a certain in incident is something that you want to. Capture for your memoir. It's okay. You don't have to know what happens before or after. Just fill out the scene card for that particular scene, putting even just the bare bones on there for now, and you can revisit that later on. Um, and so yeah, it's, it's pushed me to understand that there are ways that I can support writers who. May not want, you know, the memoir coaching course structure that I'm using more broadly as my, this is the way that worked for me and maybe it'll work for you because those other ways that are out there certainly didn't work for me'cause I tried them.

Cynthia Merrill 37:40

Totally.

Elizabeth Wilson 37:41

and I love that your assessment is free available for anyone to take.

Cynthia Merrill 37:47

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Wilson 37:48

you simply say like, make sure you have some idea of how you work as a writer before you, you sit down to take it. You wouldn't recommend someone taking it who is like, I wanna write a book. Let me see what kind of writer I am. You kind of have to kind of know, have struggled through some things to know what your preferences are, to know what, when you can get into the flow and that sort of thing. But I love that it's broadly available because I'm going to be encouraging everyone that I work with. To take it so that I have an understanding as their coach of how to kinda lean into those needs.

Cynthia Merrill 38:23

Yeah, because that's, I feel like that's one of the most, um, helpless feelings as, as somebody in a position of leadership is going. I don't like, I know that something's not

Elizabeth Wilson 38:34

Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Merrill 38:34

and I don't want to discourage this writer because my job is to help to empower them. But something about how I'm approaching this is not, not necessarily like causing harm, but it's, it's, it feels like something's clashing and I don't want them to internalize that. also wanna feel competent and capable as a leader to lead them through this. And so the nice thing about this is it is it shows, it gives you, um, like a translation of, of what's going on in their world. And I like that you brought up that if you've never like attempted to write anything at all, it might be a little bit harder to understand and answer some of the questions. But what I always tell people is, um. Is to think about it in terms of like what's true for you and what feels like, kind of like a gut impulse for you versus what you feel like is just logically true or you would logically agree with. Because there's some of the archetypes, like artists that'll talk about like you're really passionate about, like best practices in writing or sort of like, um, you know, sitting and refining. Your words until they like really sing and somebody might be like, yeah, I feel like I'm supposed to do that as a writer. It's like, okay, Like, but don't think about that. Like that. Like don't, don't think about whether or not like, yeah, I guess technically that's something that I should care about as a writer. Whenever you have like a should in your head, like, Nope. I probably feel at least a three on this at least. Just like. about this, but really pay attention to if, if it, you read one of the assessment questions and it makes you like, crinkle your nose a little bit or like, ugh, like that's an immediate, like, no, you don't like that. And if you read one of'em and you're like. Wait, I didn't, you can do that. Wait, that's a thing like, like one of the, the signs of weavers is like, you have random scraps of paper that have ideas like scattered across different notebooks, scattered across different apps, like tons of different, where you're just like, oh, I gotta collect this thing. And you just have these little pieces everywhere. And somebody who, even if they haven't like necessarily tried to write a book, they might realize like, oh. I collect random facts about things all the time because I just wanted to remember it, you know? And I just stick it somewhere. So try and if, if you haven't had experience necessarily with a bigger project, or about back, if you did have to write for something in school and there was a part of the process that you were like. This is so dumb that they make us do this. Like, I always thought it was dumb that they made us outline. I wish that I could just like write a version of it and then go back and be like, here's what my structure is. You know, because I can, I, it's like I, I retroactively create my structure. So like you can think back to things like that that maybe bothered you about the writing process in school, and make sure to just rank those lower so that we get a little bit closer to what your actual. Way of being might be. And then, and then you can test it out. Like if you get a result and you're like, huh, is that true? Try it. And if you're like, Nope, that does not work, then like, use that information to continue to inform the next stage, because this is not, this is not a perfect science. I didn't like, I don't, I don't believe that there, it's like, oh, this person's an architect. This person's an athlete, this person's a, this like, yes, those are ways that you move and breathe in the world. And yes, they come from this natural place, but this is not a hard science. This is a lot more, it's about symbolic language. It's about, um, it's just about finding something useful uh, to reflect back what's happening. And that was the whole point, like Carl Jung, who, who talked about the ar like archetypes in general, is that it is just a way, it's a language. describe something that we're already experiencing. It's something that we already see out in the world, but without language, it's hard to, um, sort of, hard to really see it because without some, without a name for it, it's hard to even realize that it's going on. But once you can name it, then it's like, oh, that's what this is. Okay. We have, we can go somewhere with this. So this is something that I'm, I'm super passionate about across industries. Um, eventually long term. It's something that I'll train people in leadership positions on so that they can use this and, and understand how to interpret the assessment results to craft something specific for the people in their world. But, and like you were saying, I think it's important for people too. Like how you can know what your strengths are and, and maybe even if you have somebody take this assessment and you can go, Hey. seems like we have pretty different archetypes. That doesn't mean I can't help you, but that it just means that, that there are aspects of this program that I've created that might feel like irrelevant to you and that's fine. And if you're here for this aspect of it, great. Um, but I just wanna be that, that helps you to feel like you're kind of in integrity with yourself, where you're like, okay, is exactly how I can help you. This is how I work best, and this is the kind of the framework that I'm sharing with you, and that that helps you to find your audience, you know, as well.

Elizabeth Wilson 43:41

I absolutely love this. Thank you for putting so much heart into this assessment. I think so many people are going to benefit from gaining this understanding and like you said, the language around this. So that they can communicate that with their writing partners, with anyone they hire.

Cynthia Merrill 43:59

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Wilson 44:00

we will have the links for to get to that assessment as well as connecting with you in the show notes. And I'm just so grateful for you being here with us today and just sharing all of this insight.

Cynthia Merrill 44:13

Absolutely. Thank you so much for, this is something that's so near and dear to my heart, and I want every writer to feel like it's possible for them to get to the finish line, and, and this is my way of bringing that into the world. So thank you for letting me share.

Elizabeth Wilson 44:27

It's such a big value for our podcast where we, we are always striving to help writers really feel embodied in the type of writing style or structure that they have. Always leaning and pushing towards the most authentic way of showing up, of being able to share our voices. And I think this really supports that value that Stephanie and I hold for this space.

Cynthia Merrill 44:54

Yeah.

Elizabeth Wilson 44:54

So thank you.

Cynthia Merrill 44:55

I appreciate it. I, I'm so grateful to be here.